Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 77 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:33 am 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:41 am
Posts: 1811
Location: Archdiocese of Singapore
JoytbC,

:arrow: Blackadder

:D

_________________
Kenny

Novus Ordo [strike]Mundi[/strike].
New [strike]World[/strike] Order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:42 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:41 pm
Posts: 11415
Location: The Deep Fried South
Religion: disillusioned
JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
Fire away! I didn't agree with that priest anyway! And nuns without habits drive me nuts. Just keep giving me more reasons to squelch the pride and go with the covering, ,please! :D


Not specifically an answer to your request for reasons - but I did find this little article and the associated links to be interesting - The Veil of the Virgin Mary

_________________
Image

Even though my life is falling apart at the seams ... I find comfort in the fact that I'm not a stripper.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:43 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:08 pm
Posts: 282
When was this show on? I've never seen it before, but it looks like it would be right up my alley. I love the sofisticated but silly humor of the brits. I'm certain my sister has heard of Blackadder though. She has more access to TV than I do now, but growing up, she had me watching plenty of the BBC. Perhaps this show is more recent than that, and I've not access to it. I'll ask my sis though, b/c if she's seen it, she most likely owns every single episode ;). And I would like to see it!
Thanks, ~Joy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:50 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:41 pm
Posts: 11415
Location: The Deep Fried South
Religion: disillusioned
Joy -

Just a thought ...

You say you are worried about being the only woman in your parish, or on your block or even in your entire city to cover her head and that doing so may make you stand out.

Have you considered that perhaps there are other women in the same situation as you? That perhaps by wearing a veil to Mass you might, in fact, be encouraging to someone else who feels called to this devotion and pious practice but faces the same fears and doubts as you?

Or that instead of looking at you and thinking, "We-lllll just who does she think she is?" someone might look at you and think, "I wonder why she wears a veil?" and then start looking into it and feeling herself drawn to the humility of covering her head?

We tend to imagine the worst of everything ... every new experience or every attempt to do something we have not done before is usually accompanied by trepidation and fear of the "worst case scenario".

But the worst rarely happens.

Your act of humility (and I truly believe it is an action of obedience and humility) may just be the encouragement that someone else needs.

Just a thought ...

_________________
Image

Even though my life is falling apart at the seams ... I find comfort in the fact that I'm not a stripper.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:52 am 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:41 am
Posts: 1811
Location: Archdiocese of Singapore
Actually the Blackadder series were a production of the 70s or 80s IIRC. I have series one to four, and heard that they produced a fifth one, but I've never seen it.

Blackadder's better than Monty Python!

_________________
Kenny

Novus Ordo [strike]Mundi[/strike].
New [strike]World[/strike] Order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:54 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:08 pm
Posts: 282
Carole wrote:
JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
Fire away! I didn't agree with that priest anyway! And nuns without habits drive me nuts. Just keep giving me more reasons to squelch the pride and go with the covering, ,please! :D


Not specifically an answer to your request for reasons - but I did find this little article and the associated links to be interesting - The Veil of the Virgin Mary


Yes, I am familiar with that. I was once a member of a Headcovering group on Yahoo too. My husband and I used to discuss this quite often about summertime of last year. I tried to make him understand that it proper for his sake as well, that I wear a veil, but he just sees it as something that was dictated by the times 'back then'. See, I'm a firm believer that culture should not change in some areas, and modest dress and veiling is one of them. Aside from their religious beliefs (obviously), I'm more in line with the Amish ::): . I think we have changed (and not for the better) but that God does not change, and things like modest dress should never have been allowed to loosen up, and especially to the extent they have. But the fact of the matter is that things have changed, and I have not been able to convince my husband (yet) that this is an important issue. This is not to say that I won't try my best to pursuade him (just as I haven't ceased in my attempts to pursuade Him to be a faithful Catholic :wink: ), but this is why I am in the situation I am in currently. I also feel like, if I'm going to take the veiling issue to heart again, I will also be taking the other matters of modest dress to heart. It will cause me to question other areas of my life which, though not sinful, are not on this more perfect path that I desire to follow, but cannot out of submission to my husband. I wish God would just convert him, then it would all be so much easier! But I suppose this is not His timing! :wink:
~Joy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:56 am 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:41 am
Posts: 1811
Location: Archdiocese of Singapore
This to me is like "kneeling to receive Communion." When I started doing it, I was afraid that it might make me appear too pious. Later though you realise that you're doing this for God and not for any other ostensible purpose, and like it was mentioned a few times in this thread already, you might just become a source of encouragement for others who wish to do the same but never found the courage to because no one else had been doing it.

_________________
Kenny

Novus Ordo [strike]Mundi[/strike].
New [strike]World[/strike] Order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:56 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:08 pm
Posts: 282
Kenny wrote:
Actually the Blackadder series were a production of the 70s or 80s IIRC. I have series one to four, and heard that they produced a fifth one, but I've never seen it.

Blackadder's better than Monty Python!


Hmmm....70s i should have been aware of, but 80s I may not have been. yes, it looks hilarious!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:02 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:08 pm
Posts: 282
Carole wrote:
Joy -

Just a thought ...

You say you are worried about being the only woman in your parish, or on your block or even in your entire city to cover her head and that doing so may make you stand out.

Have you considered that perhaps there are other women in the same situation as you? That perhaps by wearing a veil to Mass you might, in fact, be encouraging to someone else who feels called to this devotion and pious practice but faces the same fears and doubts as you?

Or that instead of looking at you and thinking, "We-lllll just who does she think she is?" someone might look at you and think, "I wonder why she wears a veil?" and then start looking into it and feeling herself drawn to the humility of covering her head?

We tend to imagine the worst of everything ... every new experience or every attempt to do something we have not done before is usually accompanied by trepidation and fear of the "worst case scenario".

But the worst rarely happens.

Your act of humility (and I truly believe it is an action of obedience and humility) may just be the encouragement that someone else needs.

Just a thought ...


Well, I did consider it as it was mentioned earlier, and I suppose I will give it more consideration. I will say, that a few years back, as I was veiling for the monastery, but not in my hometown, I once saw a woman wearing her veil to mass at our local church. I was so relieved and thought, 'well, now I won't stand out so much!', but I never saw her again. I did wear my veil one time to that parish though, and it was quite a martyrdom. It was very difficult, b/c the atmosphere in these parishes is one of fellowship instead of reverence for the mystery of the mass. And wearing the veil made me feel more closed-off, which, to me, is a good thing, b/c I personally don't go to mass for fellowship. Perhaps after mass I will linger around the courtyard for fellowship, but during mass, this is not my demeanor. This is the primary difficulty I have in standing out. I feel like it is a statement against what the parish has accomplished (fellowship during mass) - not that it shouldn't be (IMO), but, it would be too bold a statement for me to make w/out repercussions (either interiorly for me, or exteriorly from others). Does this explain my situation better?
~Joy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:05 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:08 pm
Posts: 282
Btw, I have to cut out of here for a while, but I welcome your feedback and encouragement. I'll check back later.
Thanks, ~Joy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:12 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15254
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
Edward Pothier wrote:
The Declaration by the CDF against the ordination of women [in its section on the permanent value of the attitude of Jesus and the Apostles against ordination of women] states almost in passing the former requirement:
CDF 1976 Declaration INTER INSIGNIORES wrote:
"Another objection [of supporters of the ordination of women] is based upon the transitory character that one claims to see today in some of the prescriptions of St. Paul concerning women, and upon the difficulties that some aspects of his teaching raise in this regard. But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on the head (1 Cor. 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value." {emphasis mine}
That sure sounds like abrogation of the obligation!


Doesn't sound like an abrogation to me.
Sounds like merely a statement that the requirement is no longer a normal custom in modern society. Just a statement, certainly not an order and certainly not an abrogation.

Quote:
CODE OF CANON LAW if 1983: Although the 1983 CODE OF CANON LAW is the not the totality of the Church's law (just as the 1917 CODE was not either). However, the 1917 Code, which was officially abrogated, (i.e. de-activated) by Canon 6.1.1 of the 1983 Code, did require headcovering.
1917 CODE OF CANON LAW wrote:
1917 CODE Can. 1262. § 1. Optandum ut, congruenter antiquae disciplinae, mulieres in ecclesia separatae sint a viris.

§ 2. Viri in ecclesia vel extra ecclesiam, dum sacris ritibus assistunt, nudo capite sint, nisi aliud ferant probati populorum mores aut peculiaria rerum adiuncta; mulieres autem, capite cooperto et modeste vestitae, maxime cum ad mensam Dominicam accedunt.


1917 CODE Canon 1262, § 1. "It is desirable that, in harmony with ancient Church order, the women in church be separated from the men."

Canon 1262, § 2. "Men should attend Mass, either in church or outside church, with bare heads, unless approved local custom or special circumstances suggest otherwise; women, however, should have their heads veiled and should be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord."


The 1917 Code's canon 1262 (neither section!) was not retained in any form in the 1983 CODE.


Edward Pothier


Understood. Yes, that's an interesting take.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:47 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:08 pm
Posts: 282
Kenny wrote:
This to me is like "kneeling to receive Communion." When I started doing it, I was afraid that it might make me appear too pious. Later though you realise that you're doing this for God and not for any other ostensible purpose, and like it was mentioned a few times in this thread already, you might just become a source of encouragement for others who wish to do the same but never found the courage to because no one else had been doing it.


I had a similar experience about genuflecting before receiving communion. It took a lot for me to get over it and just start doing it. I just sorta united myself with the people I'd watched on EWTN earlier :wink: . I suppose I could do that with the veil, but I'm not convinced it would be proper given the circumstances I've already mentioned.

No one has commented about the submission to my husband part. This was advised to me on more than one occasion by more than 2 priests, as this issue comes up frequently, being the wife of an unbelieving husband. I should like to do what is more perfect, and what I feel conviction to do, but I've been told repeatedly that obedience IS the more perfect thing in all circumstances, unless, of course, it causes one to sin. I am curious if this makes sense to anyone here, since, despite my having mentioned it at least 2 or 3 times in my posts, no one has replied specifically to it.
Thanks,~Joy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:04 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:41 pm
Posts: 11415
Location: The Deep Fried South
Religion: disillusioned
JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
No one has commented about the submission to my husband part. This was advised to me on more than one occasion by more than 2 priests, as this issue comes up frequently, being the wife of an unbelieving husband. I should like to do what is more perfect, and what I feel conviction to do, but I've been told repeatedly that obedience IS the more perfect thing in all circumstances, unless, of course, it causes one to sin. I am curious if this makes sense to anyone here, since, despite my having mentioned it at least 2 or 3 times in my posts, no one has replied specifically to it.
Thanks,~Joy


Joy -

I didn't address the issue of submission to your husband because I just wasn't sure what to say. I'll give you my honest opinion though ...

I feel we (women) are called by God to be modest in our dress. That Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary and Mother of God has specifically spoken to this through the visions at Fatima where she told us that more people have gone to Hell for sins of the flesh than for any other sin.

Even the Mother of God covered her head.

I also feel that if you feel called to a pious devotion (such as covering your head) and you disregard this call to piety you are perhaps flirting with the near ocassion of sin, if not sin itself.

To submit to your husband on this issue may not be the greater good.

Rather to submit to God, through humility and modesty and in obeyance of His calling to pious practice is the greater good.

But I am not in your position - my husband is a believer who supports me in answering my calling to greater piety through the imitation of Our Lady. Perhaps I would feel differently, or see things differently, if I were in your position.

_________________
Image

Even though my life is falling apart at the seams ... I find comfort in the fact that I'm not a stripper.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:07 pm 
Offline
Majesty
Majesty

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:53 am
Posts: 9037
Kenny wrote:
Actually the Blackadder series were a production of the 70s or 80s IIRC. I have series one to four, and heard that they produced a fifth one, but I've never seen it.

Blackadder's better than Monty Python!


HERESY!

Blackadder is excellent, but it ain't Python. The four series were produced from the 80's through the 90's. There are two specials ("Cavalier Years" doesn't count): "Blackadder's Christmas Carol" and "Blackadder Back and Forth" which was apparently the series wrap up and is often referred to as "BV", so that may be the fifth series you've heard about.

I've got the whole set on VHS, it's time to upgrade to DVD.

Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:09 pm 
Offline
Deceased
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:45 pm
Posts: 6695
Location: Boston (Roslindale), MA
Religion: Catholic
tAnGo wrote:
Edward Pothier wrote:
The Declaration by the CDF against the ordination of women [in its section on the permanent value of the attitude of Jesus and the Apostles against ordination of women] states almost in passing the former requirement:
CDF 1976 Declaration INTER INSIGNIORES wrote:
"Another objection [of supporters of the ordination of women] is based upon the transitory character that one claims to see today in some of the prescriptions of St. Paul concerning women, and upon the difficulties that some aspects of his teaching raise in this regard. But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on the head (1 Cor. 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value." {emphasis mine}
That sure sounds like abrogation of the obligation!


Doesn't sound like an abrogation to me.
Sounds like merely a statement that the requirement is no longer a normal custom in modern society. Just a statement, certainly not an order and certainly not an abrogation.



There is a difference between saying something is not "normative" and that something is not "normal" custom.


However, after spending perhaps more time than justified in arguing that the wearing of headcoverings by women in church is neither de jure or de facto required, allow me to repeat what I wrote in my first post in this thread:
"I must affirm my support for any woman who wishes to have her head covered in Church. She should not feel criticized or out-of-place."

Any simple and modest head covering, veil or hat, that a woman wishes to wear is fine with me. Baseball caps on guys – now that's another story!


Edward Pothier


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:48 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15254
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
JoyToBeCatholic wrote:

No one has commented about the submission to my husband part. This was advised to me on more than one occasion by more than 2 priests, as this issue comes up frequently, being the wife of an unbelieving husband. I should like to do what is more perfect, and what I feel conviction to do, but I've been told repeatedly that obedience IS the more perfect thing in all circumstances, unless, of course, it causes one to sin. I am curious if this makes sense to anyone here, since, despite my having mentioned it at least 2 or 3 times in my posts, no one has replied specifically to it.
Thanks,~Joy


Is it lawful or right to submit to a husband who would lead his wife away from the Church, and by definition, salvation?

To submit to one's husband is, in my opinion, based on the assumption that both the husband and wife are (practicing) Catholics.

This is important because it is the husband's obligation to lead his family. For Catholics, this means bringing up children in the Faith. Failure to do this is a failure on the husband's part. With no children in the family, it is still his responsibility to lead the wife as Christ leads the Church.

Husband is to wife as Christ is to Church.

This is why it is especially important (at least in my opinion) that Catholics marry Catholics. It seems impossible for a couple "to be one" when one spouse does not lead or support the other on the path towards heaven. That is one of the purposes of marriage as well.

sorry... rambling off-topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:52 pm 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:41 am
Posts: 1811
Location: Archdiocese of Singapore
legatus wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Actually the Blackadder series were a production of the 70s or 80s IIRC. I have series one to four, and heard that they produced a fifth one, but I've never seen it.

Blackadder's better than Monty Python!


HERESY!

Blackadder is excellent, but it ain't Python. The four series were produced from the 80's through the 90's. There are two specials ("Cavalier Years" doesn't count): "Blackadder's Christmas Carol" and "Blackadder Back and Forth" which was apparently the series wrap up and is often referred to as "BV", so that may be the fifth series you've heard about.

I've got the whole set on VHS, it's time to upgrade to DVD.

Steve


Python gets a tad boring after a while. It isn't so funny anymore when I watch Python and the Grail for the third time, but I still find Blackadder hilarious! The only unforgettably funny scene is from Python's Life of Brian, where Brian and the soldiers get into a grammar lesson over "Romanus eus domus."

Argh I can't find the two Blackadder specials anywhere at all. :x

I'm just that tad more fortunate than you, I've got my Blackadder on VCD!

_________________
Kenny

Novus Ordo [strike]Mundi[/strike].
New [strike]World[/strike] Order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:53 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15254
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
Edward Pothier wrote:
"I must affirm my support for any woman who wishes to have her head covered in Church. She should not feel criticized or out-of-place."

Any simple and modest head covering, veil or hat, that a woman wishes to wear is fine with me. Baseball caps on guys – now that's another story!


Edward Pothier


haha... fair enough! :duel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:22 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:20 am
Posts: 3070
Quote:
I believe that there is wisdom in that. I wonder if it would be useful to have a men's spiritual retreat which discusses topics like this as fitting for men and a women's spiritual retreat which would discuss topics like this for women. Perhaps through common prayer and discernment an approach to recapture the sacred might be a great blessing to every parish.

dan l


Dan,
I think this sounds like a great idea. It would be a good idea just to do these to help bring the sacred back into the Mass. You know, have discussions on the Eucharist, veils, the Mass, angels saints etc. I think it would be great.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:24 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:20 am
Posts: 3070
Quote:
THERE YA GO! I'd like to shove that back in that priest's face.

NOT wearing a veil CAUSES SCANDAL!


:)...well, you might try to do that. Well, ok, don't shove it in his face but let him know. :-) Ah, if it were only that easy the American Catholics would be in such a better place.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 77 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Jump to: