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 Post subject: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:00 pm 
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1) As currently practiced, it creates thousands of "excess" "orphan" embryos.
2) As currently practiced, the sperm are harvested illicitly.
3) Even if neither (1) nor (2) were the case, life comes from an expression of love, not from an encounter in a test tube.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:22 am 
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Wasn't there an additional objection raised by Paul VI in Humane Vitae about women being reduced to something like a baby factory? (Which is amusingly and ironically the same thing that feminists claim that the Church is supposedly in favor of.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:27 am 
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Can you explain #3 please? Why shouldn't a child be conceived in vitro?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:38 am 
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In our medical ethics class, the teacher showed us an IVF promotional video. Toward the end, they asked the couple who starred in the video how they were feeling. One of them said, "It feels like we just ordered a baby!" My immediate thought upon hearing that was, "Well, there's a reason for that." And I still think so.

What does that say about the baby and its relationship to the parents?

At some point I can give you a fuller theological explanation, but that example cuts to the heart of the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:52 am 
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There are several reasons why, according to Catholicism, in-vitro fertilization is immoral. I don't think my list below exhausts them:

IVF is procreative, but not unitive. Put differently, it creates a baby but does not necessarily involve sexual bonding of the parents (and I mean one mother and one father who are married to each other). It is quite noteworthy now that many feminists oppose IVF while many same-sex couples support it. Thus there is a split in the "progressive" camp over IVF.

There is the culling or a freezing of the "surplus" embryos so that only a few of the several new human beings conceived via IVF are implanted into a "carrier's" uterus. The "carrier" is not necessarily going to be the social mother of the implanted child or children. The "surplus" embryos are killed in this methodology or are "archived" into frozen storage, perhaps later to be killed or allowed to die before implantation, perhaps to be implanted into a uterus.

The health of human beings conceived via IVF is not as good as the health of those conceived via sexual intercourse.

I'm unsure how this fits into the reasoning of the Catholic Church, but I believe that married couples opting for IVF have a higher rate of divorce than other married couples. The expense of IVF may be a factor in this.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In our medical ethics class, the teacher showed us an IVF promotional video. Toward the end, they asked the couple who starred in the video how they were feeling. One of them said, "It feels like we just ordered a baby!" My immediate thought upon hearing that was, "Well, there's a reason for that." And I still think so.

What does that say about the baby and its relationship to the parents?

At some point I can give you a fuller theological explanation, but that example cuts to the heart of the issue.

How is it different from adoption?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:40 pm 
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The adopted child already exists and needs a good home.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:03 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:

At some point I can give you a fuller theological explanation, but that example cuts to the heart of the issue.

Can you give me the explanation then, please?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:09 pm 
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Many good articles here:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/ ... /index.cfm

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:35 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:

At some point I can give you a fuller theological explanation, but that example cuts to the heart of the issue.

Can you give me the explanation then, please?

The source of all life is the Father. The Father knows Himself perfectly, and His perfect knowledge of Himself generates the second Person of the Trinity, the Son. (This process is an eternal one; there was never a time when the Son did not exist.) The Son comes FROM the Father. Note that this does not make the Son inferior to the Father. The Son gives Himself to and FOR that Father, and the Father gives Himself to and FOR the Son.

The perfect love of the Father for the Son and of the Son for the Father generates the third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit comes FROM the Father and the Son, and the Spirit gives Himself eternally to and FOR the Father and the Son, who in turn are eternally FOR Him.

So the Trinity consists of three Persons made distinct by the FROM portions of the above, giving themselves perfectly to each other in the FOR portions.

God chose to create Man. Man receives his existence FROM God, and in return is meant to offer himself back to and FOR God, who is infinitely FOR us.

But it was not good for the man to be alone, and so FROM his side, God created the woman. She was FOR her husband, and he was for her (in the ways appropriate to their sexes). Their love was meant to be fruitful and produce children, just as the love of Father and Son produces the Spirit.

So the ideal human family is an image of the Holy Trinity--an imperfect image, to be sure, since the Son is not female and human families are generally meant to have more than one child, but still an image.

The essential trick of the serpent is to persuade Adam and Eve that God is not FOR them: "There's this good stuff that God doesn't want you to have." Once they buy it, they no longer want to be FOR God and resent their FROM dependence on Him.

Moreover, the interrelationships of the family are broken. The husband no longer trusts the wife to be FOR him; "I gotta take care of myself first." In a similar way, the wife no longer trusts the husband completely, and the children (if any) learn that they can no longer trust their parents completely.

The whole of Catholic sexual ethics plays out from this. Fornication is wrong because it's using another person for sexual pleasure without making a FOR commitment to them. Adultery is the same with the added harm of damaging a marriage relationship (or two). Masturbation is wrong because it's using a gift meant to be shared for yourself and yourself alone, with no FOR involved. Contraception is wrong because it involves holding back part of the FOR gift, along with damaging the Trinitarian image of live-giving love.

Children come to be seen (sometimes) as FOR the parents, to be used by them. Sometimes this happens in gravely sinful and destructive ways; sometimes it's a matter of using children against another parent (this often happens in custody disputes, but it can happen in minor ways even in families that are functioning fairly well overall.

This is the mindset behind abortion: I don't see what's in it for me to have this child, so I won't be FOR it. And the mirror image of that is the IVF mindset: I need this child to make my life right, even if it doesn't come from an act of life-giving love, but in a laboratory dish.

In either case, what is important is what the child will be for the parent--either a challenge or the fulfillment of a desire.

In the case of adoption, for one reason or another, the child cannot be raised in a family that images the Trinity; the next-best option is for the child to be raised by parents who will love and honor the child with FOR love and receive it in return, even though the child is not FROM them.

BTW, I stole all this from some guy named Ratzinger.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:29 am 
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Thank you for this response. It throws light on many things.

If it's from Ratzinger, do you have a source?

Let me try if I'm understanding you correctly - is IVF like formication, using another person for one's satisfaction?

Also - is it wrong of a childless couple to ask another married couple to have a child for them?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:51 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Also - is it wrong of a childless couple to ask another married couple to have a child for them?

Do you mean like surrogacy, or that the married couple would conceive the child naturally but allow the childless couple to adopt? I'm not sure the latter is wrong but it's weird and there's a host of practical problems with it

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:19 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Thank you for this response. It throws light on many things.

If it's from Ratzinger, do you have a source?

Let me try if I'm understanding you correctly - is IVF like formication, using another person for one's satisfaction?

Also - is it wrong of a childless couple to ask another married couple to have a child for them?

1) https://www.communio-icr.com/articles/v ... nd-freedom
2) Yes.
3) I am less confident than Peregrinator that this is permissible, even in theory.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:43 am 
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Thank you, Father.

The Trinity-family-Ratzinger thing makes me wish there was a "fire" emoji here. I've sent it to my friends :)

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:01 am 
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Just tried to post a fire emoji and the board threw up ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:45 am 
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:barf:

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Was that really necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:57 pm 
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Yes :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Why is IVF wrong?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:03 pm 
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Oh... well...


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