Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 22 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:10 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 9663
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
1. God's will for us is revealed through commands of our superiors.
2. God's will is wise.
3. Superiors may take unwise decisions.

How can this be reconciled?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:07 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13457
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
It doesn't need to be. Because 1. is not a valid proposition.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:49 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83790
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
In religious life, it is, as long as we are not instructed to act sinfully.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:48 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13457
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
So, we have this:

1. God's will for us is revealed through commands of our superiors, except when a superior commands us to do something sinful.
2. God's will is wise.
3. Superiors may take unwise decisions which direct us to sin, thus revealing that God's will is not in play.

Thus:

4. Not all commands by our superiors reflect God's will.

?

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:22 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83790
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Correct. But it is still God's will that we follow the lawful orders of a superior. For example, I might think that a certain assignment would be terrible for me, but if the bishop insists, I have to go. Even if it turns out that I was right, I still did God's will by going.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:28 pm 
Offline
Jr. Wazzooship-Winning Moderator
Jr. Wazzooship-Winning Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:18 pm
Posts: 19407
Location: Just visiting this planet.
Religion: Finally Catholic!
Church Affiliations: Legion of Mary, SVdP
It sounds not unlike the UCMJ, which compels members of the military to obey lawful orders, as well as NOT to comply with unlawful orders issued by those above us in the chain of command.

It is up to the individual, under legal advisement if time/situation permits, to determine if an order is unlawful. However, we also have to be prepared to defend our reasoning if we disobey an order and, if need be, suffer the consequences of disobedience.

_________________
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." --Douglas Adams

Image

Commit to the Image

formerly "ghall512"--Thanks for the idea, arkcatholic! :clap:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:00 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 9663
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Correct. But it is still God's will that we follow the lawful orders of a superior. For example, I might think that a certain assignment would be terrible for me, but if the bishop insists, I have to go. Even if it turns out that I was right, I still did God's will by going.

1. Does parental authority also work this way?
2. How can a wise God will what is unwise?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:17 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83790
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Parental authority is more complex. Jone:
    Piety requires that children show their parents ...
    3) Obedience in all lawful matters which relate either to their training or to the domestic order.

    Disobedience is a grievous sin if it concerns an important matter and the parents have given a real command. -- In educational matters the obligation of obedience lasts until the children come of age. -- Minors may not, therefore, undertake certain work or enlist in the army against the will of their parents. But in the choice of their vocation they are free. -- Even adult children, as long as they stay at home, must obey in all thing necessary for domestic order, e.g., to return home at a reasonable hour of the night. -- Before marrying, children should consult their parents. But even if they do not follow the sensible advice of their parents they generally commit only a venial sin.

2) This is a variation of the question of why God allows evil in general, and the answer is for a greater good.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:17 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5255
Location: Tampa, FL
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Because part of wisdom is to obey authority (where it does not lead directly to sin). More formally, I might suggest you have an equivocation in your use of "wise" in (2) and (3). In the second, "wise" is being used in an absolute sense. In the third, it's being used in a conditioned sense. By analogy, nothing is absolutely good except God Himself. All other goods are contingent and conditioned. Just so with wisdom. So while individual humans may will something that is not perfectly wise, yet it is wise for me to obey, and that because of the absolute wisdom of God willing that it is wise for me to obey authority (except when it leads directly to sin).

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:52 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13457
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
... the UCMJ, which compels members of the military to obey lawful orders, as well as NOT to comply with unlawful orders...


But for an "order" to be binding, it must meet these four criteria:

1. Legal

2. Clear

3. Unequivocal

4. Understood

"Legal" and "lawful" are synonyms. And, as stated, each service member is responsible for determining if the order is lawful. Which is a form of passing the buck ... especially under stress and in conditions of uncertainty and ambiguity.

"Clear" -- as in not garbled or misheard, a communications criterion.

"Unequivocal" -- some orders givers are expert in providing fuzzy orders for CYA and blame-fixing purposes. Wordings such as "... with all prudent speed..." or "...after consulting with appropriate authorities..." are examples.

"Understood" is, IMO, a very important criterion. Because misunderstandings and differing assumptions can create havoc.

So, a legal order is not a simple concept.

I have personally stood in the face of individuals, given them an order, a witness present, and run down that checklist ... asking at each step if I am clear, unequivocal and understood. It was an effective way of ensuring that the recipient of an order would gather that there would be consequences if not obeyed.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:09 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 12531
Location: Ultima Thule
Religion: Catholic
.

_________________
'The only cure for sagging or fainting faith is Communion.... Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals.'
J.R.R. Tolkien

Blasé member of PPPA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:19 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 12531
Location: Ultima Thule
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Parental authority is more complex. Jone:
    Before marrying, children should consult their parents. But even if they do not follow the sensible advice of their parents they generally commit only a venial sin.


Does this apply specifically to the issue of marrying?

_________________
'The only cure for sagging or fainting faith is Communion.... Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals.'
J.R.R. Tolkien

Blasé member of PPPA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83790
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
That's how I read it.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:17 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:25 am
Posts: 512
Religion: Catholic
This is the usual hair splitting. God's will for us is revealed by a number of things, not just through those who have authority over us. Sometimes, this is all about 'I'll do whatever I want because any authority can be wrong.' I hope that 'radical individualism' as Pope Benedict called it, is not at work here.

1) We should obey lawful authority.

2) Unless ordained or a religious, we have parents and a boss over us. And yes, priests and nuns stay in touch with their parents.

3) Parents don't exit our lives at age 18. I heard the following, in person, from a 17 year old to his parents: "When I turn 18, I don't gotta listen to you anymore!" I knew his parents. Instead of giving him the near death experience he deserved, they continued to love him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:28 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2493
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Correct. But it is still God's will that we follow the lawful orders of a superior. For example, I might think that a certain assignment would be terrible for me, but if the bishop insists, I have to go. Even if it turns out that I was right, I still did God's will by going.


Does this apply laity listening to a priest or bishop?

Or only religious life as you noted above?

Assuming it doesn't lead to sin that is.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:55 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83790
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
A priest or bishop doesn't have that much control over the lives of his flock.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:13 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2493
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A priest or bishop doesn't have that much control over the lives of his flock.


I was thinking more what we must submit too beyond doctrine.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:27 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83790
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
More specifically?

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:50 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2493
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
More specifically?


I was just trying to see how far the Church's authority can extend.With the mandatum thing that’s been floating around, I was just thinking if it would be within the Church’s perview to tell catholics to leave theology, etc. to the experts if you will.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On obedience
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:44 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40450
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That's how I read it.

Yes, I think it would apply only to marriage. It would not apply to religious vocation.

_________________
"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)

Looking for Lego? Try Faber Family Bricks!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 22 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


Jump to:  
cron