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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:25 am 
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Doom wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.



This include the oans posture during the Our Father?


The laity doing the oran posture is I think due to a misunderstanding did some people just mimic whatever they see the priest do

Actually, I have only seen another posture which is different from the orans posture. It is simmilar but not a Roman posture at all.
People do not copy the Priests I think. They are probably just feeling like doing something physical to accomapny their interior prayers.
It loks like this but without the American posture of holding hands): https://studyprayserve.files.wordpress. ... t_mass.jpg
or like this: https://www.americamagazine.org/sites/d ... FATHER.jpg
I say it (holding hands) is an American thing cause I never see it here in Sweden.
Anyway, why do you think people like this posture? Do people find this a more natural posture than the oran posture?
It feels kinda natural. You lift up the prayers. Orans posture feels weird.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:09 am 
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I sing at Mass. I mean, I am one of usually a choir or two leading the singing from the choir loft. I have to say that this is in many ways a sacrifice. Admittedly this also has to do with the fact that I often cannot sing what I should prefer both liturgically and musically both due to the limitations of the material and the resources (just the two of us), but we do achieve a better selection and standard than there otherwise would be. However, it is also, and importantly, very much a sacrifice because it is often easier to participate actively interiorly when one does not have any "tasks". I do not remotely understand why people think they have to "do something" in an exterior sense to participate actively.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:19 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:44 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Everybody had to participate at the right time through a response or song.

They were forced to say the responses?



The Mass has rules. Because we love God and the Church, we follow the rules. And that is meant as a joyous thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:55 pm 
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There aren't really rules for how laypeople should act during Mass but it's not surprising that Catholic schoolchildren would have been taught/told to act a certain way.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:00 pm 
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What was the purpose of Religion Class then? I had it for every grade and as we got older, we could handle more complex material. We were taught how to hold our hands in prayer. We had a book that described the Mass, the vestments, everything. My mother bought one of the used texts. It is titled, To Live is Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:22 pm 
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I haven't attended a "Novus Ordo" mass in a few years--and I don't plan to!


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:10 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
Doom wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.



This include the oans posture during the Our Father?


The laity doing the oran posture is I think due to a misunderstanding did some people just mimic whatever they see the priest do

Actually, I have only seen another posture which is different from the orans posture. It is simmilar but not a Roman posture at all.
People do not copy the Priests I think. They are probably just feeling like doing something physical to accomapny their interior prayers.
It loks like this but without the American posture of holding hands): https://studyprayserve.files.wordpress. ... t_mass.jpg
or like this: https://www.americamagazine.org/sites/d ... FATHER.jpg
I say it (holding hands) is an American thing cause I never see it here in Sweden.
Anyway, why do you think people like this posture? Do people find this a more natural posture than the oran posture?
It feels kinda natural. You lift up the prayers. Orans posture feels weird.


That picture from America magazine is how, many years ago, our pastor taught us how to hold our arms. Elbows at our sides and arms in front with hands open. It looks neat and uniform. That pastor is not there any longer and not everyone is doing the same thing. If the congregation is not taught they just do what they think they should be doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:01 pm 
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Quote:
It loks like this but without the American posture of holding hands): https://studyprayserve.files.wordpress. ... t_mass.jpg
or like this: https://www.americamagazine.org/sites/d ... FATHER.jpg


was one of the things I really disliked occurring at a pauline mass.

glad i don't have to deal with it anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:49 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
Quote:
It loks like this but without the American posture of holding hands): https://studyprayserve.files.wordpress. ... t_mass.jpg
or like this: https://www.americamagazine.org/sites/d ... FATHER.jpg


was one of the things I really disliked occurring at a pauline mass.

glad i don't have to deal with it anymore.

Nor should anyone. Catholics have a right to the Mass of All Time--not the mass of Bugnini and the freemasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:12 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
was one of the things I really disliked occurring at a pauline mass.

glad i don't have to deal with it anymore.


It's likely that if the Novus Ordo were suddenly abolished and all Catholics were forced to go to the TLM, that they would continue to hold hands in the Our Father and raise their hands in the air at "sed libera nos a malo."


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I hate to dispute someone who was there, but what you describe was the case for only a short while and is not the case when the EF is celebrated these days.


I've been to parish with silent low masses, they're not uncommon. But it is not universal. I regularly attend low masses where the whole congregation says the Dominus Vobiscums and the Sed Libera Nos a Malo or any other response (except the prayers at the foot of the altar).

Regardless, I've always felt more "in tune" with any liturgy in any Catholic rite where the priest faces the altar. I regularly serve at the Ukrainian language Divine Liturgy at the local UGCC, and just by virtue of the internal logic of the Divine Liturgy, I feel I can participate better than when I am at a Novus Ordo and frequently feel out of touch with all the liturgical decisions that have been made in the past 70 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:38 pm 
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Pelagius wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
was one of the things I really disliked occurring at a pauline mass.

glad i don't have to deal with it anymore.


It's likely that if the Novus Ordo were suddenly abolished and all Catholics were forced to go to the TLM, that they would continue to hold hands in the Our Father and raise their hands in the air at "sed libera nos a malo."


eh, i dunno...
when it comes to that part of the mass, the fact that the priest doesn't turn around to face everybody makes me doubt that would happen.... especially if people were suddenly thrust into the TLM after being at the novus ordo exclusively over the years. It would maybe take some time to be able to recognize when the priest was at that part of the mass, and in a way, that might return everyone to "original settings" and break the habit. Would even be moreso the case for a low mass because everyone is still kneeling at that point.

FWIW, the question of a 'dialogue mass' creeps up from time to time, and such is a thing that i think somehow just managed to develop in some places, some parishes, with certain priests. it's one thing for the congregation to join the choir in anything that is sung at Mass (with the exception of the propers because [reasons]). It's something else to try to coordinate spoken responses in Latin. We don't do that at our chapel. We had a visitor at Mass one time who made an audible response to 'dominus vobiscum' and the priest actually said aloud from the altar without turning around, "This is NOT a dialogue mass!"

wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:05 pm 
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We had missals. We knew what the priest was doing at all times.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
ingenting wrote:
My queston has always been: what is the meaning of the term "participation"?
I really liked a video in which a certain Bishop Barron talked about how participation came to mean all the external things we can do at Mass. The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYkcyuVwjrY&t=407s

Is there a Latin guy here? What does participatio actuosa really mean in Latin? Is active participation a good translation?
It seems that the interior participation is what the Church was talking about. We need more interior participation.
This seems to say that we had too little interior participation in the years 1900-1962 and we therefore needed to make big Liturgical changes. Is this even true?

I found this website: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/20 ... giTAuhKjIU
Is this website trustworthy? Are they problematic in some ways or just amazing?



Being in Catholic school before the end of Vatican II, the Mass was explained in full. All of its parts were made clear. The Church is the House of God and our reverence upon entering meant silence during the Mass aside from our responses and singing. We knew when to stand, kneel and sit. We were to be very attentive. The sacrifice of the Mass was something the Lord told His disciples to do. We needed the right interior attitude as well. As we knew, the consecrated Host was Christ Himself. God saw us there. He was a real person.


This is really a response to ingenting and not amon...

In one of my missals, there was a really nice introduction that talked about active participation and what it meant.
As memory serves, it said that 'active participation' means to 'pray the mass'.

Well what does that mean? It means that if you have your missal in hand, then you're not really just supposed to be following along, per se, but actively participating by internally praying the Latin (or feel free to internally read in the vernacular on the other side of the page) and offering the Mass along with the priest. That's it. It's that simple.

Is this to say that there was "too little internal participation" prior to V2 and the pauline mass?

Well, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from people saying they never knew what was going on, they couldn't get attached to the mass, old ladies praying rosaries throughout the mass, people claiming they never heard the bible preached at mass, etc... all of which might possibly be indicative of lack of proper catechesis or something, I don't know... it might be fair to say that at some point, a different kind of participation was desired, and whatever type of audience participation was desired just didn't seem to mesh very well with the traditional liturgy.... ergo, let's create a new liturgy... because we can.

Of course that begs the question because Rome could arguably have just started using the vernacular with the old liturgy, and people likely could have much more easily 'joined along' in responses in the vernacular.... and since Rome didn't do that, then it's not possible that that was the only reason behind creating a new liturgy.


Last edited by tAnGo on Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
We had missals. We knew what the priest was doing at all times.


took me better than 3 months to figure it out, quite frankly.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:06 pm 
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Pelagius wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
was one of the things I really disliked occurring at a pauline mass.

glad i don't have to deal with it anymore.


It's likely that if the Novus Ordo were suddenly abolished and all Catholics were forced to go to the TLM, that they would continue to hold hands in the Our Father and raise their hands in the air at "sed libera nos a malo."

I think they'd be more apt to mimic the servers than the priest to be honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:10 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Respectfully, I went to a High Mass (with lovely Gregorian chant) many years ago and I noticed no such responses. Was that an abberation?

I don't know. In my experience it is.


anything that is sung by the choir at high mass --- with the propers being a technical exception because [reasons] --- the people can join along with... and that includes all the responses: 'amens' (although most people don't do the proper intonation of the right 'amen' at different times), the 'et cum spiritu tuo', the 'gloria tibi domine', 'habemus ad dominum', 'dignum et iustum est', 'sed libera nos a malo', etc.

anything the choir does not do in terms of a response is not supposed to be done by the people..
the most immediate thing that comes to mind is the suscipiat.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:10 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Pelagius wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
was one of the things I really disliked occurring at a pauline mass.

glad i don't have to deal with it anymore.


It's likely that if the Novus Ordo were suddenly abolished and all Catholics were forced to go to the TLM, that they would continue to hold hands in the Our Father and raise their hands in the air at "sed libera nos a malo."

I think they'd be more apt to mimic the servers than the priest to be honest.


Such would not only be apropos, but logical.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:27 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
I don't understand what the fuss is all about.
Why do people disslike versus populum? Is that even a problem?
Even the Extraordinary form is celebrated versus populum at certain times.


No, not really.
There is not one 'extended' part of the TLM that is "celebrated" facing the people.
The priest turns briefly a few times for the 'dominus vobiscum'.
He turns briefly for the 'orate, fratres..'
He turns briefly for the indulgentium just prior to communion.

That's hardly "celebrated versus populum at certain times."

Quote:
Why ten do "trad Catholics" dislike versus populum?
Even the EF has it?
Is the issue with how versus populum is beig practiced?


You might find the info on this page helpful:
https://sanctamissa.org/en/faq/praying-the-mass.html


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