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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.



This include the oans posture during the Our Father?



The laity doing the oran posture is I think due to a misunderstanding did some people just mimic whatever they see the priest do


Mmmmmmmm....what about that verse of Scripture which speaks of "lifting holy hands to pray?"


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I offer no defense of #2, which was a wrong-headed idea from the beginning.

With respect to #1, I'm not sure you're aware of what the older form of Mass is like. There are no congregational responses--the servers make them all. This was necessary because the Mass was said in a very low voice, so that only the servers could hear it. With a few exceptions (most notably the elevations and the "behold the Lamb of God"), the congregation saw little and heard nothing. I think you can see how it is at least possible that people in the congregation could feel very disconnected from what was going on.


I believe the term for this is "clericalism," that is, the clergy are a special kind of people beyond just being ordained (which does make them special in a way). It is them and God and the people are just passive observers. This is what I appreciate about the Eastern Lirturgy - the people are very involved from the very beginning right to the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:46 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Ah. What did/does the congregation do at a high Mass? Next time I will know what to say.

It depends on the time and place. I think in most places, now, the congregation will sing all or most of the responses as well as the Creed, and from what I've read that seems to have been the French custom (at least) before the Council. But also most of the prayers at a sung Mass are audible to the congregation.


Respectfully, I went to a High Mass (with lovely Gregorian chant) many years ago and I noticed no such responses. Was that an abberation?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:03 pm 
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I was in 11th. grade when they instituted the new Mass. I never felt disconnected during the old Mass. I followed along in the Missalette, which had both English and Latin, which we had to learn in Catholic school.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:13 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Respectfully, I went to a High Mass (with lovely Gregorian chant) many years ago and I noticed no such responses. Was that an abberation?

I went to an Easter Mass about 12-13 years ago; surely it was a high Mass; and I don't recall anything audible.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I went to an Easter Mass about 12-13 years ago; surely it was a high Mass; and I don't recall anything audible.

So the priest didn't sing the Introit, Collect, Epistle, Gospel, Preface? That sounds more like a Low Mass with hymns.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:20 pm 
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It was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Perhaps my memory betrays me.

I think the priest who celebrated it can't carry a tune in a bucket, so that may have affected his choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:24 pm 
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anawim wrote:
I was in 11th. grade when they instituted the new Mass. I never felt disconnected during the old Mass. I followed along in the Missalette, which had both English and Latin, which we had to learn in Catholic school.



Same here. Every week in Catholic school, we had to go to Mass on one day as a class. In Latin, with our responses in Latin. The English was on the same page.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:55 am 
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My queston has always been: what is the meaning of the term "participation"?
I really liked a video in which a certain Bishop Barron talked about how participation came to mean all the external things we can do at Mass. The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYkcyuVwjrY&t=407s

Is there a Latin guy here? What does participatio actuosa really mean in Latin? Is active participation a good translation?
It seems that the interior participation is what the Church was talking about. We need more interior participation.
This seems to say that we had too little interior participation in the years 1900-1962 and we therefore needed to make big Liturgical changes. Is this even true?

I found this website: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/20 ... giTAuhKjIU
Is this website trustworthy? Are they problematic in some ways or just amazing?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Perhaps my memory betrays me.

I think the priest who celebrated it can't carry a tune in a bucket, so that may have affected his choices.

Well a high Mass is sung - that is, both the Ordinary and the Propers are sung. If he chose to celebrate a Low Mass that's fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:18 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Respectfully, I went to a High Mass (with lovely Gregorian chant) many years ago and I noticed no such responses. Was that an abberation?

I don't know. In my experience it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:34 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
My queston has always been: what is the meaning of the term "participation"?
I really liked a video in which a certain Bishop Barron talked about how participation came to mean all the external things we can do at Mass. The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYkcyuVwjrY&t=407s

Is there a Latin guy here? What does participatio actuosa really mean in Latin? Is active participation a good translation?
It seems that the interior participation is what the Church was talking about. We need more interior participation.
This seems to say that we had too little interior participation in the years 1900-1962 and we therefore needed to make big Liturgical changes. Is this even true?

I found this website: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/20 ... giTAuhKjIU
Is this website trustworthy? Are they problematic in some ways or just amazing?



Being in Catholic school before the end of Vatican II, the Mass was explained in full. All of its parts were made clear. The Church is the House of God and our reverence upon entering meant silence during the Mass aside from our responses and singing. We knew when to stand, kneel and sit. We were to be very attentive. The sacrifice of the Mass was something the Lord told His disciples to do. We needed the right interior attitude as well. As we knew, the consecrated Host was Christ Himself. God saw us there. He was a real person.

All we were told in Religion Class was that the Mass in English would encourage greater participation.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:38 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
Is there a Latin guy here? What does participatio actuosa really mean in Latin? Is active participation a good translation?

Yes. Some think that "actual participation" would be better, but I don't see it. But even "active" doesn't mean everybody has to be visibly doing something.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Everybody had to participate at the right time through a response or song.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:47 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
I found this website: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/20 ... giTAuhKjIU
Is this website trustworthy? Are they problematic in some ways or just amazing?

New Liturgical Movement is a great site

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:09 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
anawim wrote:
I was in 11th. grade when they instituted the new Mass. I never felt disconnected during the old Mass. I followed along in the Missalette, which had both English and Latin, which we had to learn in Catholic school.



Same here. Every week in Catholic school, we had to go to Mass on one day as a class. In Latin, with our responses in Latin. The English was on the same page.


One of the most frequent responses was, 'Et cum Spiritu tuo', which we joked was God's telephone number.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:29 pm 
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I remember it well.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:30 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
What does participatio actuosa really mean in Latin? Is active participation a good translation?
It seems that the interior participation is what the Church was talking about. We need more interior participation.


I don't know what the author of that phrase meant, but here's the entry for "actuosus" in Lewis and Short.

Quote:
actŭōsus, a, um, adj. actus,
I full of activity, very active (with the access. idea of zeal, subjective impulse; diff. from industrius, which refers more to the means by which an object is attained, Doed. Syn. 1, 123): virtus actuosa (est), et deus vester nihil agens expers virtutis (est), Cic. N. D. 1, 40; so id. Or. 36, 125; Sen. Ep. 39.—Hence, acc. to Fest. s. v. actus, p. 15, subst., an actor or dancer.—Adv.: actŭōse, in a lively manner, with activity, Cic. de Or. 3, 26, 102.

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi ... isandshort


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 am 
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I don't understand what the fuss is all about.
Why do people disslike versus populum? Is that even a problem?
Even the Extraordinary form is celebrated versus populum at certain times. Why ten do "trad Catholics" dislike versus populum?
Even the EF has it?
Is the issue with how versus populum is beig practiced?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:15 am 
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Amon98 wrote:
Everybody had to participate at the right time through a response or song.

They were forced to say the responses?


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