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 Post subject: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:48 am 
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What are the benefits of versus populum?
I would like to know. I am probably a stupid guy who cannot figure it out. There must be at least some good reason but I just cannot find it. But then not even one single Priest have been able to tell me the benefits of versus populum. They just tell me that this is the tradition nowadays. They don't even know themselves it seems. What are the benefits?
Do Priests really not know what they are doing? To me versus populum looks stupid. The priests look stupid facing the congregation. I do not want to be disrespectful of our new tradition. I just want to understand it. Has the Vatican ever said anything about this?

Then we have the obvious question: what is versus populum? what about this Mass? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaCmlZnEiw
To me this Mass is ad orientem and not versus populum.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:41 am 
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It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:35 am 
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Doom wrote:
It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.


:(

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:55 am 
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Doom wrote:
It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.



This include the oans posture during the Our Father?

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:26 am 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is technically not even authorized, there is nothing in the rubrics that mentions it. In fact, I have been told that there is a point in the rubrics where it says that the priest is to turn around and face the people, which, unless, he is to do a360 degree spin can only mean that before that he must have been facing the other way.


What happened is that shortly after Vatican II, priests in the Netherlands, who wanted to Protestantize the Mass, started doing it, and when the authorities did nothing, it spread until it became nearly universal.

This is also how most of the liturgical novelties of the 1970's and 80's got started including communion in the hand and the removal of communion rails.



This include the oans posture during the Our Father?



The laity doing the oran posture is I think due to a misunderstanding did some people just mimic whatever they see the priest do

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:43 am 
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Versus populum is licit and approved. General Instruction of the Roman Missal: "299. The altar should be built separate from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible."

The places in the rubrics where the priest is told to face the people are there in case he is not already doing so. Never do they say that he turns to face the people; rather, they say, "facing the people" or something like that, just in case he is not already doing so.

As to the reasoning behind it, there are (I think) two principal reasons given.

1) The desire to make it easier for the congregation to participate actively by making it more visible to them what is occurring;
2) A desire to emphasize the communal meal aspect of the Mass.

There may be something to the first reason, though there are other ways to accomplish that goal. The second reason turns the community in on itself and deemphasizes the sacrificial aspect of the Mass and deemphasizes the worship of God.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:51 am 
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From the book, The Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:

"The turning of the priest towards the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself. The common turning towards the East was not a "celebration towards the wall"; it did not mean that the priest "had his back to the people": the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian liturgy the congregation looked together "towards the Lord." As one of the Fathers of Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy, J. A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession towards the Lord. They did not close themselves into a circle, they did not gaze at one another, but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us."

"Turning to the East Essential

"On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of something accidental, but of what is essential. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a common direction for prayer."


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Versus populum is licit and approved. General Instruction of the Roman Missal: "299. The altar should be built separate from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible."

The places in the rubrics where the priest is told to face the people are there in case he is not already doing so. Never do they say that he turns to face the people; rather, they say, "facing the people" or something like that, just in case he is not already doing so.

As to the reasoning behind it, there are (I think) two principal reasons given.

1) The desire to make it easier for the congregation to participate actively by making it more visible to them what is occurring;
2) A desire to emphasize the communal meal aspect of the Mass.

There may be something to the first reason, though there are other ways to accomplish that goal. The second reason turns the community in on itself and deemphasizes the sacrificial aspect of the Mass and deemphasizes the worship of God.


That is all retroactive legalization of what was already happening

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:47 pm 
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I know. But it is now authorized, and your post implied otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:13 pm 
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How is the Mass in the video different from versus populum?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
1) The desire to make it easier for the congregation to participate actively by making it more visible to them what is occurring;
2) A desire to emphasize the communal meal aspect of the Mass.

Nr 1 just sounds stupid to me. How is that even true? Just sound dumb to me so please explain.
Nr2. Just sounds like "let us not think too much about calvary at Mass".


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:56 pm 
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I offer no defense of #2, which was a wrong-headed idea from the beginning.

With respect to #1, I'm not sure you're aware of what the older form of Mass is like. There are no congregational responses--the servers make them all. This was necessary because the Mass was said in a very low voice, so that only the servers could hear it. With a few exceptions (most notably the elevations and the "behold the Lamb of God"), the congregation saw little and heard nothing. I think you can see how it is at least possible that people in the congregation could feel very disconnected from what was going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:23 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I offer no defense of #2, which was a wrong-headed idea from the beginning.

With respect to #1, I'm not sure you're aware of what the older form of Mass is like. There are no congregational responses--the servers make them all. This was necessary because the Mass was said in a very low voice, so that only the servers could hear it. With a few exceptions (most notably the elevations and the "behold the Lamb of God"), the congregation saw little and heard nothing. I think you can see how it is at least possible that people in the congregation could feel very disconnected from what was going on.



That's not accurate. The complaint was "We can't understand the Latin." If you had The St. Joseph Daily Missal, the Latin and English were on the same page. The priest spoke and we responded, in Latin. There was Latin Class at the local Catholic high school till about 1970, just about the time when poor quality catechesis began. Bells were rung at certain times as cues. And when we heard the organ, it was time to sing.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:58 pm 
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I hate to dispute someone who was there, but what you describe was the case for only a short while and is not the case when the EF is celebrated these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:04 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I offer no defense of #2, which was a wrong-headed idea from the beginning.

With respect to #1, I'm not sure you're aware of what the older form of Mass is like. There are no congregational responses--the servers make them all. This was necessary because the Mass was said in a very low voice, so that only the servers could hear it. With a few exceptions (most notably the elevations and the "behold the Lamb of God"), the congregation saw little and heard nothing. I think you can see how it is at least possible that people in the congregation could feel very disconnected from what was going on.

and thus they needed the versus populum?
So people complained back in the days that the Priest had their back to them? They were upset that they went to Mass but the Priests did have their back to them at many times during Mass which is not a proper things when you are socialising with people???


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
With respect to #1, I'm not sure you're aware of what the older form of Mass is like. There are no congregational responses--the servers make them all. This was necessary because the Mass was said in a very low voice, so that only the servers could hear it. With a few exceptions (most notably the elevations and the "behold the Lamb of God"), the congregation saw little and heard nothing. I think you can see how it is at least possible that people in the congregation could feel very disconnected from what was going on.

Respectfully, Father, this was only the case at Low Mass, which wasn't the norm for Sunday Mass in most times and places.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Ah. What did/does the congregation do at a high Mass? Next time I will know what to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:54 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Ah. What did/does the congregation do at a high Mass? Next time I will know what to say.

It depends on the time and place. I think in most places, now, the congregation will sing all or most of the responses as well as the Creed, and from what I've read that seems to have been the French custom (at least) before the Council. But also most of the prayers at a sung Mass are audible to the congregation.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:34 am 
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I have learned something today. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about the Mass
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:58 am 
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You're welcome.

Even at Low Mass I don't think the intention is for all of the prayers to be inaudible. It just (sometimes) works out that way because the prayers are spoken and not sung -- it will depend on the strength of the priest's speaking voice. One Mass I used to go to was celebrated by a priest, now deceased (RIP), ordained in 1939. He spoke softly, but not completely inaudibly. I don't like to project but my guess is he wasn't much different from his contemporaries. Certainly sounded better than this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPXSwoTcL0g

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