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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:26 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
If Patriarch Sviatoslav is serious about being "Orthodox in doctirne, praxis, theology, and Liturgy," somewhere down the road he is going to rename that cathedral because it does not reflect Orthodox understandings of the Panagia. He will also instruct us to take out the pews and kneelers as we do not kneel in Orthodoxy nor sit at any time during the Liturgy.

Maybe consider that when you say "Orthodox in Communion with Rome do not accept the Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility" that you speak for yourself and not Eastern Catholics in general?

That's partly the problem isn't it? Orthodox are more autonomous and not just culturally.

I always get stuck on development when discussing things with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:43 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
Uh huh....boy, you done done it now!

So what you are saying is that if I was living in the time when Limbus Infantium was a teaching of the Church, I was bound to believe that God sends unbaptized babies to hell to suffer forever? A teaching, which BTW, has now been discarded.

You are saying that I have to believe that the Scriptures state that God is love, but I have to believe that God is an angry deity who will punish you forever for wrong thoughts about Him?

And then there is the whole issue of what exactly constitutes the Catholic Church? Is it the teachings of the Roman Rite in particular, because within communion of the 24 churches in communion with Rome, there are churches that don't or teach certain things which the Roman Church demands of its citizens. For instance, there is no reference whatsoever in the Ukrainian Catholic Catechism regarding Indulgences. We don't do indulgences. My Melkite spiritual director is very Orthodox, which means that in the Melkite Church, for instance, after you confess your sins to the priest, you do not get a "penance" because Eastern Catholics don't do penances.

Our Patriarch, His Holiness Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, recently stated that the UCC is "....fully Orthodox in theology, doctrine, praxis, and Liturgy." This means, if you take this at face value, that I hold to all the teachings of Holy Orthodoxy, some of which are in direct contradiction to that which Rome teaches, such as the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc. Yet our body is "in communion with Rome" (I don't know how this is really possible, since the phrase "in communion" means that you have the same and identical set of beliefs, but nonetheless) and therefore is part of the 24 church communion which is referred to as "the Catholic Church." Maybe someone can 'splain that to me.

So what exactly does one have to believe to not be wrong? What is the heart of the Gospel message and the message about Christ? I have some ideas, but I will wait for responses to this post.


I suspect this may take the thread off course.

I've experienced that this topic usually comes down to proper development within the Church. A development in the east that may have some merit is St. Gregory Palamas for example, the essence and energies of God is something that is foreign to the West. Unfortunately, and this is just my experience, most things western are just not well received and I know it's deeply rooted but it does stifle dialogue.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:58 am 
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Light of the East wrote:



Uh huh....boy, you done done it now!

the time when Limbus Infantium was a teaching of the Church, I was bound to believe that God sends unbaptized babies to hell .

If one of these posters were to use blatant strawmen of Byzantine beliefs, you would be offended, ang rightly so. Kindly stop doing the same to their Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:00 am 
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Dominic wrote:
I always get stuck on development when discussing things with them.

Yes, that is because they claim to have preserved the teachings of the Fathers unaltered when in fact they view them through the lens of those who broke communion with the Holy See or who were propped up by the Ottomans

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:40 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
If Patriarch Sviatoslav is serious about being "Orthodox in doctirne, praxis, theology, and Liturgy," somewhere down the road he is going to rename that cathedral because it does not reflect Orthodox understandings of the Panagia. He will also instruct us to take out the pews and kneelers as we do not kneel in Orthodoxy nor sit at any time during the Liturgy.

Maybe consider that when you say "Orthodox in Communion with Rome do not accept the Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility" that you speak for yourself and not Eastern Catholics in general?


My friend, listen to the phrase again - "ORTHODOX ..... in communion with Rome."

What does it mean to be Orthodox? Is all it means is that we have a different Liturgy with different music? Is that all it means to be O-R-T-H-O-D-O-X? Orthodoxy is more than just that. It is a whole system of belief, predicated on the writings and teachings of the Patristic Fathers. The sad and lamentable schism of the Church came about for just this reason - Rome left the teachings of the Fathers, the original Creed, and began doing things in a manner that was no longer in line with Patristic teachings. Orthodoxy has been accused of being "ossified in time," an accusation we proudly wear because change in what the Apostles left to the Fathers cannot be justified in any manner. Coming up with new theological ideas is the seedbed of heresies.

Maybe "I" am not the problem. Maybe the problem is Eastern laity and bishops who lost their identity in the 20th century by bowing to the demands of Irish bishops in the United States. I think even Saint Pope John Paul the Great ( a lot of us love this man, despite differences) recognized this when he urged us to return to our authentic roots. What he wrote tentatively opened the door for the restoration of married priests in the Eastern Church, a right that was violently and abusively stripped from us. (Do the names Bishop Ireland and Father Alexis Toth mean anything to you?)

When His Holiness, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav, declared that the UCC is really and truly Orthodox, does he mean it or is he just blowing smoke for public consumption? If he didn't mean it, he should have said, "we are first and foremost Catholics and we accept some of the teachings of Orthodoxy." Something like that. Something that made it quite clear rather than muddying up the waters the way his statement did.

The Orthodox do not accept the idea of an Immaculate Conception. It causes anthropological, soteriological, and theological problems It was not taught by the Patristic Fathers. (Mary was taught as Immaculate, (i.e. sinless, yes, but not Immaculately Conceived) It makes no sense to the Orthodox mind, but to the Roman Catholic mind, it is a necessity because of the acceptance of Augustine's (yes, there I go again!) idea of "inherited guilt" aka Original Sin. If inherited guilt were to be true, then absolutely yes, for our salvation, Mary's Immaculate Conception would be an absolute necessity.

Now.....honestly, how many good and decent people in the East do you think have actually ever sat down and thought through all this? What percentage of people do you think had either education enough, intelligence enough, or training enough to think through this? Things are accepted so many times because someone "in authority" teaches it and that settles that. I would bet that out of all the people in the UCC, I couldn't find 5% who could actually enunciate the difference between the Eastern and Western views of how Mary is Immaculate. Can you see how this ignorance would lead the Eastern Catholics in America to just accept whatever they are told without thinking and move on.

No, Peregrinator, I AM Orthodox, in everything but my body. About a year ago, really desiring to convert to Orthodoxy, I prayed long about it and got a distinct sense that for whatever reason, the Lord was saying, "Stay where you are for now. I have plans for you." So I obey. My spiritual father knows this. He is Melkite, that is, another branch of Eastern Catholicism and they are more Orthodox in praxis than the UCC. He is helping me understand how to live this out in my life without conflict or without going crazy about it.

The only problem I have with it are Romans who think that everyone has to either be Roman or at least believe as they do. I love you guys, I pray for the Roman Church and for reunion, and I think you do love Jesus. I also think some of the particulars taught in Rome are in error (i.e. those things which will have to be discussed at an ecumenical council before reuion can take place).

I do not get the same deference from the West, especially Latin Traddies. I am a heretic, damned to hell, and need to repent, and that's that. In other words, I need to become Roman Catholic, despite the warm relationship between Rome and the Eastern Catholic churches.

So be it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:49 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Dominic wrote:
I always get stuck on development when discussing things with them.

Yes, that is because they claim to have preserved the teachings of the Fathers unaltered when in fact they view them through the lens of those who broke communion with the Holy See or who were propped up by the Ottomans


I am stunned at this statement. It reeks of falsehood. The Ottomans have spent the last 1,000 years in the Middle East killing Orthodox.

But let's discuss what you said.

Suppose you show me the preservation of Roman Catholic doctrines over time. Let's start with a couple of easy ones.

Show me Patristic writings teaching the Immaculate Conception. Indulgences. Show me baptism by sprinkling. Show me where the Fathers taught that infant children should be denied the Eucharist, the source of Eternal life. Show me any Patristic Father prior to Augustine teaching the inheritance of Adam's guilt and the condemnation for what Adam did. Show me where the Patristic Fathers used the phrase "Universal Bishop" in describing the Bishop of Rome.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you know something I missed or don't know. I don't think so, but I have been wrong many times before in my life.

Let's talk.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
If Patriarch Sviatoslav is serious about being "Orthodox in doctirne, praxis, theology, and Liturgy," somewhere down the road he is going to rename that cathedral because it does not reflect Orthodox understandings of the Panagia. He will also instruct us to take out the pews and kneelers as we do not kneel in Orthodoxy nor sit at any time during the Liturgy.

Maybe consider that when you say "Orthodox in Communion with Rome do not accept the Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility" that you speak for yourself and not Eastern Catholics in general?

That's partly the problem isn't it? Orthodox are more autonomous and not just culturally.

I always get stuck on development when discussing things with them.


As in St. John Henry Newman's "Development of Doctrine?" Is that what you refer to?

If so, I think you would find (having read something Orthodox on this recently) that the Orthodox East is not against further development of doctrine. What they oppose is coming up with something brand new, never known before, unlinked to previous doctrine, and actually causing theological problems within the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:55 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
As in St. John Henry Newman's "Development of Doctrine?" Is that what you refer to?

If so, I think you would find (having read something Orthodox on this recently) that the Orthodox East is not against further development of doctrine. What they oppose is coming up with something brand new, never known before, unlinked to previous doctrine, and actually causing theological problems within the Church.


That's the thing isn't it? We obviously agree, but development isn't necessarily easy to unpack. I mean, for example, I can see the Supremacy of Peter as far back as the book of James when he has the last word in a Council, but I know many EO's that would see that as a sign of primacy alone, but not supreme.

That is of course the point of having a central authority, even if that authority had landed in Russia.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:59 pm 
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This thread should probably be split into another topic.

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Last edited by Dominic on Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:41 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Rome left the teachings of the Fathers, the original Creed, and began doing things in a manner that was no longer in line with Patristic teachings.

Yeah just like Rome invented the ecclesiastical divorce in the 9th century, oh wait, that was Photius, then-Patriarch of Constantinople.

Quote:
I need to become Roman Catholic, despite the warm relationship between Rome and the Eastern Catholic churches.

You don't need to become "Roman" Catholic, you only need to accept the fullness of what the Church teaches, just as all who wish to be saved.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:41 pm 
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START A NEW THREAD IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE THE OFF-TOPIC DISCUSSION.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:48 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
START A NEW THREAD IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE THE OFF-TOPIC DISCUSSION.


Yes, ma'am! :salut: :salut: :salut: :salut:


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