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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:36 pm 
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Heck, I remember discovering at least once during seminary that I was a material heretic.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:46 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Heck, I remember discovering at least once during seminary that I was a material heretic.


It all seemed so simple to me in the beginning.

Listen to the Church.

Still the case, but it's a little muggy at times with so many voices.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:10 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Heck, I remember discovering at least once during seminary that I was a material heretic.


It all seemed so simple to me in the beginning.

Listen to the Church.

Still the case, but it's a little muggy at times with so many voices.


not as much so many voices as it is the one voice who should know better ... though i agree there are some princes of the Church out there who also need to perhaps dial it back quite a bit :nooo:

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:32 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


It's the willing to be corrected that makes a difference.

Corrected by whom? Who has the authority to correctly correct someone who is possibly a heretic?


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:38 pm 
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When a person (such as I was) discovers what the Catholic Church actually teaches, is he willing to abandon his previous belief?

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:11 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Corrected by whom? Who has the authority to correctly correct someone who is possibly a heretic?


Matthew 18:15-17

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:37 pm 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Corrected by whom? Who has the authority to correctly correct someone who is possibly a heretic?


Matthew 18:15-17
15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.


But who in “the church” should he “hear”? Who in “the church” should be listened to? Who can give the correct answer as to whether someone is a heretic or not?


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:59 pm 
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Can. 750 Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which is manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium. All are therefore bound to shun any contrary doctrines.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:29 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

He who does not believe what exactly? Jesus was not referring to believing in everything, so what exactly was he referring to?

Respectfully, this seems like an odd thing to say. Relationships by default are conditional and it would be abnormal for someone to say, “I’m only going to subscribe to some of the things that make this relationship work”. Unless of course you don’t equate what the Catholic Church officially teaches to who God is.



Uh huh....boy, you done done it now!

So what you are saying is that if I was living in the time when Limbus Infantium was a teaching of the Church, I was bound to believe that God sends unbaptized babies to hell to suffer forever? A teaching, which BTW, has now been discarded.

You are saying that I have to believe that the Scriptures state that God is love, but I have to believe that God is an angry deity who will punish you forever for wrong thoughts about Him?

And then there is the whole issue of what exactly constitutes the Catholic Church? Is it the teachings of the Roman Rite in particular, because within communion of the 24 churches in communion with Rome, there are churches that don't or teach certain things which the Roman Church demands of its citizens. For instance, there is no reference whatsoever in the Ukrainian Catholic Catechism regarding Indulgences. We don't do indulgences. My Melkite spiritual director is very Orthodox, which means that in the Melkite Church, for instance, after you confess your sins to the priest, you do not get a "penance" because Eastern Catholics don't do penances.

Our Patriarch, His Holiness Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, recently stated that the UCC is "....fully Orthodox in theology, doctrine, praxis, and Liturgy." This means, if you take this at face value, that I hold to all the teachings of Holy Orthodoxy, some of which are in direct contradiction to that which Rome teaches, such as the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc. Yet our body is "in communion with Rome" (I don't know how this is really possible, since the phrase "in communion" means that you have the same and identical set of beliefs, but nonetheless) and therefore is part of the 24 church communion which is referred to as "the Catholic Church." Maybe someone can 'splain that to me.

So what exactly does one have to believe to not be wrong? What is the heart of the Gospel message and the message about Christ? I have some ideas, but I will wait for responses to this post.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:34 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Material heretic: Wrong but does not know it and would be willing to correct belief if the error were made known.

Formal heretic: Wrong, knows it, does not care.


Wrong according to whom?

As per my recent post, Eastern Catholic churches, being Orthodox in theology, praxis, dogma, and Liturgy, would most likely fit your definition of a formal heretic as we do not subscribe to Roman dogmas such as the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Indulgences, etc.

Which keeps me scratching my head wondering how we can be called "in communion" when we are not united in belief, which is the very foundation of communion and why Protestants are not invited to the Lord's Table on Sundays.

If we do not share a number of dogmas of the Roman Church, then how are we in the UCC any different from Protestants? And how are we in communion? This question has nagged at me for a couple of years now. I think that most of the people and hierarchy simply turn their eyes away from this and don't care to address it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:36 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Heck, I remember discovering at least once during seminary that I was a material heretic.


It all seemed so simple to me in the beginning.

Listen to the Church.

Still the case, but it's a little muggy at times with so many voices.


As I posted above, it gets a LOT more muggy when you toss in the Eastern Catholic churches.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:08 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can. 750 Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which is manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium. All are therefore bound to shun any contrary doctrines.


But who decides if a doctrine is a contrary doctrine, that must be shunned, or not? It may be obvious in some cases, but in less obvious cases, if it’s disputed, who decides?

Is it just one person, i.e. the Pope, or is it a committee, and if so, what committee, and does it have to be a unanimous decision or a majority decision or a two-thirds majority, or what?


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Ed, if you accept Papal infallibility (as per the UCC), then how can you not accept Immaculate Conception?

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:45 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Ed, if you accept Papal infallibility (as per the UCC), then how can you not accept Immaculate Conception?


Let me go back and repeat myself. I am Orthodox. In communion with Rome. Papal infallibility is not part of Orthodoxy. We honor the Bishop of Rome as the first among equals. We honor that place of primacy and unity. Orthodoxy does not and never has accepted the recently dogmatized idea of papal infallibility.

Orthodoxy also does not accept the Immaculate Conception, another recent idea which has no patristic basis. There is no writing that Mary had to be or was Immaculately Conceived. There is no need for an Immaculate Conception. It is based on a false idea of Original Sin as first promoted by Augustine (sorry, Father Obi, but that's the truth. He came up with it and Orthodox theologians lay this doctrine squarely at his feet). We do not inherit guilt or stain from Adam. We inherit the consequence of Adam's action, which is death.

This is the strange part about being Orthodox in Communion with Rome. We are a sui juris body with our own doctrinal statements, our own catechism, etc. Sometimes it gives me a migraine trying to figure it all out. But the point is, we are not Roman Catholics.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:47 pm 
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The Ukrainian Catholic cathedral for the Archeparchy of Philadephia is dedicated to the Immaculate Conception.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:51 pm 
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https://www.ukrcathedral.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:58 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The Ukrainian Catholic cathedral for the Archeparchy of Philadephia is dedicated to the Immaculate Conception.


I know. And the prayer books we have used to have the Filioque Clause in them (it is now scratched over). I've gone into at least one large parish in downtown Pittsburgh where the Rosary was playing on loudspeakers and the Iconostasis had been ripped out of the floor and removed :crying: :crying: :crying:

These are some of the evidences of the "latinization" of the Byzantine East that had no business whatsoever being done to our church and our parishes in the United States. Beginning with Bishop Basil Tacach in 1920, who was called to the Vatican and told point blank that there would be no married priests in America, the Irish Catholic bishops in this country bullied the hell out of us and the bishops. Instead of resisting them (and reminding the Pope that the Union of Brest) promised in the 35 Canons of the Union that the Eastern churches could retain their Orthodox distinctives, the bishops and the people just went along.

Point blank, there was a lot of compromise with the Roman Catholic Church in this country in a desire to somehow prove that we were really Catholics and good, obedient Catholics to boot. This didn't begin to change until Pope John Paul the Great gave express instructions to the Eastern churches to go back to our patrimony and be what we are - which is not Roman Catholic.

If Patriarch Sviatoslav is serious about being "Orthodox in doctirne, praxis, theology, and Liturgy," somewhere down the road he is going to rename that cathedral because it does not reflect Orthodox understandings of the Panagia. He will also instruct us to take out the pews and kneelers as we do not kneel in Orthodoxy nor sit at any time during the Liturgy.

Quite frankly, I think if the men who signed the Union could have seen in the future the damage that would be done to the Eastern Church, they would have said "Thanks, but no thanks."


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:13 pm 
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East/West...ugh, glad I'm a northerner...

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:34 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
If Patriarch Sviatoslav is serious about being "Orthodox in doctirne, praxis, theology, and Liturgy," somewhere down the road he is going to rename that cathedral because it does not reflect Orthodox understandings of the Panagia. He will also instruct us to take out the pews and kneelers as we do not kneel in Orthodoxy nor sit at any time during the Liturgy.

Maybe consider that when you say "Orthodox in Communion with Rome do not accept the Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility" that you speak for yourself and not Eastern Catholics in general?

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 am 
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This is we call throwback: viewtopic.php?p=2799039#p2799039

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