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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:37 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
I wasn't answering Dominic, I was answering you. :fyi:

I fully understand that, Signum. I wasn't questioning your answer. I was pointing out that Peregrinator's answer was in no way an answer to Dominic's question.


Then you should not have quoted my response.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:48 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
I wasn't answering Dominic, I was answering you. :fyi:

I fully understand that, Signum. I wasn't questioning your answer. I was pointing out that Peregrinator's answer was in no way an answer to Dominic's question.


well since he quoted you, i would say it was an answer to your question 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:37 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
I wasn't answering Dominic, I was answering you. :fyi:

I fully understand that, Signum. I wasn't questioning your answer. I was pointing out that Peregrinator's answer was in no way an answer to Dominic's question.


well since he quoted you, i would say it was an answer to your question 8-)

Yes it was an answer to my question, that's correct, but as my question was “What would Jesus say? What did Jesus say?” in regard to Dominic’s question, then Peregrinator’s answer was an irrelevant answer which had nothing to do with Dominic’s question or my question. That was the point I was making.


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:00 pm 
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I hope I don't have to say anything more in this thread because what I can say in this Catholicism 101 forum is very limited. :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:08 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I hope I don't have to say anything more in this thread because what I can say in this Catholicism 101 forum is very limited. :fyi:


You don't have to keep reminding people of that. :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:42 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I hope I don't have to say anything more in this thread because what I can say in this Catholicism 101 forum is very limited. :fyi:


You don't have to keep reminding people of that. :fyi:


:fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I hope I don't have to say anything more in this thread because what I can say in this Catholicism 101 forum is very limited. :fyi:


You don't have to keep reminding people of that. :fyi:

I have to keep reminding myself!


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I hope I don't have to say anything more in this thread because what I can say in this Catholicism 101 forum is very limited. :fyi:


You don't have to keep reminding people of that. :fyi:

I have to keep reminding myself!


You're excused. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm 
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Maybe my brain is stuck in 2019, but I don't think the question of dying while wrong was ever answered. And by wrong, I mean theologically wrong about something but still in the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:20 pm 
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A person who dies as a formal heretic is lost.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:58 pm 
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I'm gonna have to dig up what formal heretic is. Versus not formal.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:15 pm 
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Material heretic: Wrong but does not know it and would be willing to correct belief if the error were made known.

Formal heretic: Wrong, knows it, does not care.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:16 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
but hey, at least we haven't started ordaining women... or is that wimmen?.... yet

If that ever happens, you can be sure your individual parish is in schism.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:20 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
but hey, at least we haven't started ordaining women... or is that wimmen?.... yet

If that ever happens, you can be sure your individual parish is in schism.


i was using the "we" to refer to the Church ... my parish has actually started going back "the right way"

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:00 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Material heretic: Wrong but does not know it and would be willing to correct belief if the error were made known.

Formal heretic: Wrong, knows it, does not care.

So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:14 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Material heretic: Wrong but does not know it and would be willing to correct belief if the error were made known.

Formal heretic: Wrong, knows it, does not care.

So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


If you believe that you're right, yet an established authority(such as Divine revelation) tells you that you're wrong, there's no real rational reason to continue to disagree, it's just time to reassess your beliefs and adjust your interpretive framework.

IOW to continue to disagree wouldn't be matter of mere difference of opinion, it would be a matter of egoism and irrational obstinacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:21 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


It's the willing to be corrected that makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:34 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Material heretic: Wrong but does not know it and would be willing to correct belief if the error were made known.

Formal heretic: Wrong, knows it, does not care.

When asking this question, I had some of the topics dividing Catholics in mind. EENS, women working outside the home, etc. all the other stuff that is going on in catholic circles. It sounds like that would mostly fall under material heretic for most Catholics.

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:32 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


It's the willing to be corrected that makes a difference.


and with the horrible catechesis that has been running rampant for quite some time, iwstm there are many material heretics amongst the ranks of the faithful

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 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:01 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


It's the willing to be corrected that makes a difference.


and with the horrible catechesis that has been running rampant for quite some time, iwstm there are many material heretics amongst the ranks of the faithful


I was one at one time. I can speak from experience. For a long time I didn't understand why the Church didn't allow women priests, or artificial contraception.

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