Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 4   [ 72 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:55 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2328
Location: Fort Worth
Religion: Catholic
My wife (who recently joined the board: Ret_I_cent) and I have been discussing the angst and pains we see many Catholics going through in the Church. It affects us all and it is somewhat comforting that this isn’t the first time the Church finds itself in disarray. That it’s been able to come out of it, time and time again. The disarray doesn’t always look the same and in many ways, it looks the worst now. Although I do recall a Council where priests were in altercations. The media machine makes things worse so there is that. Nonetheless, it is real. I see it and feel it as do we all.

One of the joys and peace about becoming Catholic (from Protestantism) is we don’t need to worry about being theologians or not having a solution to every quarrel; at least those things that matter.

However, as of late, Catholicism doesn’t look any different than Protestantism. You have some Catholics leaning more right and others more left in a linear spectrum. And it’s not just political in nature, but overlaps on how we see liturgy, theology, doctrine, etc.

This may not be news to many, but it is to some and it’s more obvious than ever.

So the questions arose………

Can a catholic die in good standing while being wrong about vital aspects of the faith? Vital as in big D doctrine or dogma. (I think I know the answer to this but wanted to discuss)

Where does a catholic look to when the Church’s authoritative documents are being argued by the clergy and those in authority? For a section of time, one could say it’s really no different than Protestantism in that there is confusion and you don’t know where to go. Only difference is you have way more documents to go through in Catholicism.

Which ultimately means you can have an entire sector of Catholics be wrong about something.

Which isn’t new.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:30 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13016
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Oh, the Church is much, much different than Protestantism. But, admittedly, alike in others.

When I was converting, the priest who was my mentor told me that if I was moving to the Church planning to escape the turmoil of my former church, I was going to be very disappointed.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:48 pm 
Offline
Our Lady's Gladiator
Our Lady's Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:26 am
Posts: 104197
Location: Revelation 11:19-12:1
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus
but hey, at least we haven't started ordaining women... or is that wimmen?.... yet

_________________
All Marian devotion begins with Christ,is centered on Christ,and ends with Christ.
As Mary brought Jesus to us,so shall She bring us to Jesus!


De Maria numquam satis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:16 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82343
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Flannery O'Connor wrote:
I think that the Church is the only thing that is going to make the terrible world we are coming to endurable; the only thing that makes the Church endurable is that it is somehow the body of Christ and that on this we are fed. It seems to be a fact that you have to suffer as much from the Church as for it but if you believe in the divinity of Christ, you have to cherish the world at the same time that you struggle to endure it.
(From her first letter to an anonymous correspondent, July 20, 1955)

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:26 am 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13016
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
faithfulservant wrote:
but hey, at least we haven't started ordaining women... or is that wimmen?.... yet


After the Amazon Synod will there not be a Synod for Amazons?

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2328
Location: Fort Worth
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Flannery O'Connor wrote:
I think that the Church is the only thing that is going to make the terrible world we are coming to endurable; the only thing that makes the Church endurable is that it is somehow the body of Christ and that on this we are fed. It seems to be a fact that you have to suffer as much from the Church as for it but if you believe in the divinity of Christ, you have to cherish the world at the same time that you struggle to endure it.
(From her first letter to an anonymous correspondent, July 20, 1955)


Thanks.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:31 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2328
Location: Fort Worth
Religion: Catholic
Highlander wrote:
Oh, the Church is much, much different than Protestantism. But, admittedly, alike in others.

When I was converting, the priest who was my mentor told me that if I was moving to the Church planning to escape the turmoil of my former church, I was going to be very disappointed.


It's not so much the turmoil, but that it is only in the Church that you can find a solution to interpretational chaos.

And of course, I believe this.....but it becomes hard to see at times.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:01 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:37 am
Posts: 918
Location: NYC
Religion: Catholic
faithfulservant wrote:
but hey, at least we haven't started ordaining women... or is that wimmen?.... yet


I have more often seen "womyn" than "wimmen." Your herstory might be different than mine, however.

_________________
"Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:08 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13016
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
but hey, at least we haven't started ordaining women... or is that wimmen?.... yet


I have more often seen "womyn" than "wimmen." Your herstory might be different than mine, however.


Hush your patriarchal mutterings. I think all womxn agree with me.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:49 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 810
Religion: Looking for answers
Dominic wrote:
My wife (who recently joined the board: Ret_I_cent) and I have been discussing the angst and pains we see many Catholics going through in the Church. It affects us all and it is somewhat comforting that this isn’t the first time the Church finds itself in disarray. That it’s been able to come out of it, time and time again. The disarray doesn’t always look the same and in many ways, it looks the worst now. Although I do recall a Council where priests were in altercations. The media machine makes things worse so there is that. Nonetheless, it is real. I see it and feel it as do we all.

One of the joys and peace about becoming Catholic (from Protestantism) is we don’t need to worry about being theologians or not having a solution to every quarrel; at least those things that matter.

However, as of late, Catholicism doesn’t look any different than Protestantism. You have some Catholics leaning more right and others more left in a linear spectrum. And it’s not just political in nature, but overlaps on how we see liturgy, theology, doctrine, etc.

This may not be news to many, but it is to some and it’s more obvious than ever.

So the questions arose………

Can a catholic die in good standing while being wrong about vital aspects of the faith? Vital as in big D doctrine or dogma.

What would Jesus say?

What did Jesus say?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:28 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 8174
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
The Lord knows what is in their hearts, whether they are culpable or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:37 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2328
Location: Fort Worth
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Dominic wrote:
My wife (who recently joined the board: Ret_I_cent) and I have been discussing the angst and pains we see many Catholics going through in the Church. It affects us all and it is somewhat comforting that this isn’t the first time the Church finds itself in disarray. That it’s been able to come out of it, time and time again. The disarray doesn’t always look the same and in many ways, it looks the worst now. Although I do recall a Council where priests were in altercations. The media machine makes things worse so there is that. Nonetheless, it is real. I see it and feel it as do we all.

One of the joys and peace about becoming Catholic (from Protestantism) is we don’t need to worry about being theologians or not having a solution to every quarrel; at least those things that matter.

However, as of late, Catholicism doesn’t look any different than Protestantism. You have some Catholics leaning more right and others more left in a linear spectrum. And it’s not just political in nature, but overlaps on how we see liturgy, theology, doctrine, etc.

This may not be news to many, but it is to some and it’s more obvious than ever.

So the questions arose………

Can a catholic die in good standing while being wrong about vital aspects of the faith? Vital as in big D doctrine or dogma.

What would Jesus say?

What did Jesus say?

I do not know.

However,…I do know this. This is not something unique to us or that somehow other religions or groups are immune from this. It has been forever the inclination of people to just leave from wherever they were (theist and non-theist alike) to something else; and there are ample examples of that in history. What has splitting and leaving done exactly? No need to go very far, just look at what happens within families. That isn’t to say we just do nothing, but if history has shown us anything, it is that Catholics need no introduction to arguing and wrestling it out. We seem to be good at that.

On second thought………..I think Jesus would say:

John 6
67………. “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

There is nowhere else to go. No one else to go to. There is just looking at Him.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:26 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40134
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:01 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 13016
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Dominic wrote:
John 6
67………. “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

There is nowhere else to go. No one else to go to. There is just looking at Him.

Very insightful. As I looked around, and continue to look around, the various Christian sects, and as I compare and contrast them to the Church, I conclude...

There is nowhere else to go.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:34 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 810
Religion: Looking for answers
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

He who does not believe what exactly? Jesus was not referring to believing in everything, so what exactly was he referring to?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:21 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73451
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

He who does not believe what exactly? Jesus was not referring to believing in everything, so what exactly was he referring to?


Himself, His Resurrection.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:57 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 810
Religion: Looking for answers
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

He who does not believe what exactly? Jesus was not referring to believing in everything, so what exactly was he referring to?


Himself, His Resurrection.

And that is not an answer to Dominic's question, is it? As I'm only allowed to ask questions in this forum, that's all I've got to say.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:43 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2328
Location: Fort Worth
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

He who does not believe what exactly? Jesus was not referring to believing in everything, so what exactly was he referring to?

Respectfully, this seems like an odd thing to say. Relationships by default are conditional and it would be abnormal for someone to say, “I’m only going to subscribe to some of the things that make this relationship work”. Unless of course you don’t equate what the Catholic Church officially teaches to who God is.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:50 am 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73451
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
What did Jesus say?

"He who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

He who does not believe what exactly? Jesus was not referring to believing in everything, so what exactly was he referring to?


Himself, His Resurrection.

And that is not an answer to Dominic's question, is it? As I'm only allowed to ask questions in this forum, that's all I've got to say.


I wasn't answering Dominic, I was answering you. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dying while wrong
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:14 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 810
Religion: Looking for answers
Signum Crucis wrote:
I wasn't answering Dominic, I was answering you. :fyi:

I fully understand that, Signum. I wasn't questioning your answer. I was pointing out that Peregrinator's answer was in no way an answer to Dominic's question.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 4   [ 72 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


Jump to: