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 Post subject: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:45 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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If they are people in power, such that the criminal justice system won't hurt them?

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:35 am 
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No, why do you ask this?

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:29 am 
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A friend asked this.

Can you explain?

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:39 am 
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That would be premeditated murder.


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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:28 pm 
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From a purely legal standpoint, there is considerable precedent to exonerate a man who kills his daughter’s rapist upon catching him in the act. In this case, the state decided not even to press charges. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18522383

The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
From a purely legal standpoint, there is considerable precedent to exonerate a man who kills his daughter’s rapist upon catching him in the act. In this case, the state decided not even to press charges. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18522383

The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”


There have also been cases where a man falsely claimed that he caught a man raping his wife or daughter as an excuse to commit premeditated murder. You need a little more than just the man's claim. You would also need to show that nothing less than murder would have sufficed to stop the rape, or else you would get convicted for manslaughter rather than murder, a lesser charge but it still carries a prison sentence.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”



and we carry big guns! :fyi: 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:07 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
From a purely legal standpoint, there is considerable precedent to exonerate a man who kills his daughter’s rapist upon catching him in the act. In this case, the state decided not even to press charges. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18522383

The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”


There have also been cases where a man falsely claimed that he caught a man raping his wife or daughter as an excuse to commit premeditated murder. You need a little more than just the man's claim. You would also need to show that nothing less than murder would have sufficed to stop the rape, or else you would get convicted for manslaughter rather than murder, a lesser charge but it still carries a prison sentence.

The TL:DR translation - no one here is an attorney, each case is unique. YMMV. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:07 pm 
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TL;DR: Regardless of the legality of it, it is very unlikely (well-nigh impossible) ever to be moral.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:49 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
A friend asked this.

Can you explain?

What part of “Thou shalt not kill” do you or your friend not understand?


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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:14 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
A friend asked this.

Can you explain?

What part of “Thou shalt not kill” do you or your friend not understand?

You have provided an incorrect English translation out of context, DeeDee, and by doing so, you’re not contributing at all. Hasn’t Siggy already gotten onto you about not posting in Cath101? I don’t have access to her private conversations, but hiding behind the “Jeopardy Rule” by putting your misinformation in the form of a question most definitely violates the spirit of her restriction, if not the letter.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:57 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Doom wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
From a purely legal standpoint, there is considerable precedent to exonerate a man who kills his daughter’s rapist upon catching him in the act. In this case, the state decided not even to press charges. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18522383

The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”


There have also been cases where a man falsely claimed that he caught a man raping his wife or daughter as an excuse to commit premeditated murder. You need a little more than just the man's claim. You would also need to show that nothing less than murder would have sufficed to stop the rape, or else you would get convicted for manslaughter rather than murder, a lesser charge but it still carries a prison sentence.

The TL:DR translation - no one here is an attorney, each case is unique. YMMV. :fyi:

Some people here are attorneys, though not me, and I think not anyone else actually posting in this thread. But I will say that in most US states, if not all, using lethal force to stop an event you reasonably believe to be a rape--whether the victim is your daughter or a complete stranger--would be considered fully justified "self defense." So, you come upon a scene where a man is clearly assaulting a woman and she cries out to you "help, please, he's trying to rape me!" If you use lethal force to stop this event you are almost certainly not going to be convicted of any crime, and if the local prosecutor is a decent human being, you will not be charged. (As always, civil litigation is a possibility.)

The catch is that the laws governing legal use of lethal force vary from state to state, and what counts as justificatory can therefore vary. In some states, you are justified in using lethal force to defend another person if you reasonably believe lethal force is called for. But in other states--I half remember maybe Ohio?--you are justified in using lethal force to defend another person only if that other person would have been justified in using lethal force to defend himself. You might think that's a distinction without a difference but in fact it can make all the difference. Suppose the scene I described above was actually a fight started by the woman, who attacked the man with a knife, and he was "assaulting" her only to try to keep her from cutting him open. You wade into this dispute and shoot the man. You almost certainly reasonably believe that lethal force is permitted in defending the woman. So in many states you'd be safe from criminal prosecution even though you killed the wrong person. But in (maybe) Ohio(?) and possibly other jurisdictions, you'd be subject to criminal prosecution, probably for a very serious crime. In both cases, of course, you'd likely face civil suits.

Anyway, that's all to say that defense of others is generally justificatory, though the precise details matter a lot. And in general it is a bad idea to get involved in other people's fights, including men hitting women, unless you have a really good idea of what's going on and are willing to bet your life on it.

None of this applies to chasing down a rapist and killing him after the act is done. Once the assault is over, shooting the bad guy no longer counts as self defense. Pursuing a bad guy is not something the non-law-enforcement citizen is generally authorized to do, and certainly pursuing him in order to execute him would not be permissible.

I'm actually open to the possibility of its being morally licit to lynch someone, in extreme circumstances. Suppose, for example, that you had a relatively isolated community that was according to the letter of law under the jurisdiction of some distant and uninterested ruler who never sent representatives, etc. Suppose you had a serious criminal who was known for sure to be the bad guy, who posed a grave risk to the community in multiple ways, who clearly deserved the death penalty, but who could never reasonably be expected to be punished by the legal authority. If the community leaders in that case came together and decided to lynch that person, I would think that could be morally permissible. But that's a pretty unusual circumstance and I doubt it would be found very often on the globe today. Also, it's just my opinion and I'm not basing it on some recognized Catholic teaching authority. So it's subject to correction by those who know more than I do, which is most of you.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:45 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
From a purely legal standpoint, there is considerable precedent to exonerate a man who kills his daughter’s rapist upon catching him in the act. In this case, the state decided not even to press charges. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18522383

The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”


I do believe that translation is accurate in Georgia as well.


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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:47 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
TL;DR: Regardless of the legality of it, it is very unlikely (well-nigh impossible) ever to be moral.


it is not moral, but it is damn sure understandable!


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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:13 pm 
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I agree with ... with ... never mind.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
From a purely legal standpoint, there is considerable precedent to exonerate a man who kills his daughter’s rapist upon catching him in the act. In this case, the state decided not even to press charges. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18522383

The Texas translation would be “He needed killin’.”


I do believe that translation is accurate in Georgia as well.

I can confirm that, my brother.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
A friend asked this.

Can you explain?

What part of “Thou shalt not kill” do you or your friend not understand?

You have provided an incorrect English translation out of context, DeeDee, and by doing so, you’re not contributing at all. Hasn’t Siggy already gotten onto you about not posting in Cath101? I don’t have access to her private conversations, but hiding behind the “Jeopardy Rule” by putting your misinformation in the form of a question most definitely violates the spirit of her restriction, if not the letter.

Is the Douay Rheims Bible not the Catholic Bible? That's where I got "Thou shalt not kill" which you are now saying is "an incorrect English translation".

Exodus 20 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

13 Thou shalt not kill.


Also, it's in the Catholic Catechism:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER TWO
"YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"

ARTICLE 5
THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not kill.


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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:11 pm 
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That is indeed a valid translation, but the CCC also goes on to discuss times when one may indeed kill, such as in legitimate defense. So Jack3's question isn't open-and-shut.

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 Post subject: Re: May man kill daughters rapists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That is indeed a valid translation, but the CCC also goes on to discuss times when one may indeed kill, such as in legitimate defense. So Jack3's question isn't open-and-shut.

Okay, then I’d like to ask Jack3 this question:
Signum Crucis wrote:
That would be premeditated murder.

What part of premeditated murder do you or your friend not understand?


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