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 Post subject: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:24 am 
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Hello everyone,

So I've recently become a law student, and was looking for prayers to St Thomas More.

I found one that included the following:

Quote:
Thomas More . . . Sit with me at my desk and listen with me to my clients' tales. Read with me in my library and stand always beside me so that today I shall not, to win a point, lose my soul.


I think the idea is very nice but is it appropriate to ask a saint to be with as if they were an angel?

Do any indulged prayers speak this way?
Did any saints pray for these types of things while alive?
Do we have any traditions that validate this practice?

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:59 am 
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I don't see anything wrong with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:44 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with it.

This may be a naive question but it is a genuine question, and I don't necessarily expect you to have the definitive answer, but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about it, Obi, and anyone else: Can a saint, a deceased person, be in two places at the same time?


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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:52 pm 
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Bilocation has been known to happen, even among the living, but I don't think that the prayer is asking for actual physical presence; rather, it's asking that all the listed activities take place under the saint's patronage and intercession, and using metaphoric language to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:21 pm 
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IOW, I think the original poster is reading the prayer more literally than its author intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 pm 
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I certainly didn't mean physically present in two places at the one time. Maybe it was a stupid question or maybe it's beyond all our understanding, but what I meant is that if a saint, a deceased person (a soul who is no longer in a body) can be aware of us when we pray, and, in some sense (not physically) be present with us, can the same saint be present with another person in a different place at the same time? God is omnipresent, but a saint is not God. So a saint (a deceased person) cannot be everywhere like God, but how then can a saint be present with more than one person in different places at the same time?

I know I'm being simplistic, but I'd like to have some better understanding of this.


Last edited by Denise Dee on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:50 pm 
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It's a perfectly reasonable question, very often raised with respect to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The answer is that God must give them the ability to do this. Also, Heaven doesn't run in parallel time to earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:56 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's a perfectly reasonable question, very often raised with respect to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The answer is that God must give them the ability to do this. Also, Heaven doesn't run in parallel time to earth.

I knew time would somehow be involved in this question, but I don't really understand how!


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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:19 pm 
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Time is a very hard thing to get a handle on. I can, at best, claim to be confused at a somewhat deeper level.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Bilocation has been known to happen, even among the living, but I don't think that the prayer is asking for actual physical presence; rather, it's asking that all the listed activities take place under the saint's patronage and intercession, and using metaphoric language to do so.



Not to be nitpicky but until the resurrection of the dead, the only one in heaven who could be physically present is the Virgin Mary unless others have been assumed that we don't know about.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Oddly enough, I was just talking about this with sixth-graders today. It is possible that any or all of the following also have bodies in Heaven: Moses, Enoch, Elijah, St. Joseph.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:09 pm 
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And, according to a pre-Christian Jewish tradition, Moses.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:46 pm 
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Doom wrote:
And, according to a pre-Christian Jewish tradition, Moses.

It's right in the Epistle of St. Jude

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:15 pm 
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The epistle of Jude dors not say Moses was assumed, all it says is that there was a ln argument over his body and that according to Origen, Jude was quoting a pre-Christian Jewish document called "The Assumption of Moses

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Add Christ to the physically present as well! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Christ is not a saint

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Christ is not a saint


Hmmm... Depending on what you mean, I may disagree with you. He is what gives meaning to Sanctus for the human race. There are many meanings of the word saint. It can mean anyone in heaven whether we know them or not. It can mean the ones that are revealed to us. It can mean a fallen human who was sanctified, and yet also mean Mary who never fell. It can even mean an Angel. Yet, all of these meanings are tied to holiness himself, which is the one we call Holy in the Mass... In fact, we say, "you alone are holy."

I didn't mean to start an argument. I was just trying to be cute. But, your response just got me thinking that sainthood has no meaning unless Christ is the model of sanctity.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:57 pm 
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I suppose it is like existence. We have existence or are made to exist. God is existence. Likewise, we are made saints, and Christ IS a saint. We are made holy, he is holiness.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Never in the history of the Church has anyone ever uttered the phrase 'Saint Jesus Christ' and I am inclined to think the phrase may well be blasphemous.

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 Post subject: Re: Invoking Saints to be With You
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:48 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Never in the history of the Church has anyone ever uttered the phrase 'Saint Jesus Christ' and I am inclined to think the phrase may well be blasphemous.


In English no, I agree. And please know that I am not trying to be nit-picky here or cause an argument. But, "You alone are holy" is the title we give Christ in the Mass and it is that which creatures are raised to in order to also be called Sanctus. The Son of God assumed our nature to lift it up and make it holy.

I think adding the title of "Saint" to a person means they were lifted to this status (or passed some test as in the angels) so we would not use it casually with Christ. But, he is the standard that gives that title any meaning. So, we wouldn't say "Saint Jesus" because it is redundant and confusing. Again, I liken it to talking about existence. We exist. But, we really only have existence whereas God is existence. Our existence only has meaning because there is One that is existence. I would say the same with sainthood.

FJ

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