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 Post subject: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 pm 
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First, do Protestant ministers who convert to Catholicism continue to conduct the same kinds of confessions that they already have conducted, or do they need to learn distinctively Catholic principles of confession that aren't respected by some Protestant denominations?

Second, is confession always made by exactly one individual Catholic to exactly one individual priest?

To explain my train of thought that motivated me to ask the second question:

If a confession is about a previous interaction with a third party, then a priest could -- without violating the laws of physics -- invite a Catholic who was an eyewitness to the interaction, and listen to both, with them able to hear each other, and agree upon at least some points.

If the person making confession and a Catholic eyewitness willing to participate in the confession were to disagree on all significant points regarding what happened, then there would seem to be a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:16 am 
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The priest hearing confessions must observe the rules.

The priest is bound not to reveal or discuss the sins of the penitent. No intention, consequence or permission changed this.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:33 am 
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Do Protestant ministers hear confessions? In my Protty days, I attended just about every kind of church, and I never, EVER heard any Protestant pastor talk about hearing confessions. The closest thing I can think of is witnessing people saying “the sinner’s prayer” or other prayers, but never anything approximating the sacrament of reconciliation. They certainly aren’t bound by the seal of the confessional as Catholic priests are.

If it does exist at all, I’d guess it’s with Westminster Presbyterians or Episcopalians, with which I haven’t had a lot of experience - only one or two visits each.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:59 pm 
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Some Lutherans practice confession, as Luther did.

Former protestant ministers are sometimes ordained in the Church. Their previous practices or beliefs are not relevant. If they have faculties to hear confession (it is very rare, outside of disciplinary action, for a priest not to) they follow the ritual of their rite (besides the predominant Latin rite, there are Eastern Catholic rites)

In all cases, confession is made privately. A priest may never reveal the contents directly or indirectly even if threatened with death. A priest who does so is excommunicated, and there is no mitigating the punishment. They must maintain the seal no matter what.

The only other person who may be present is an interpreter, e.g if the priest and penitent share no common language. The interpreter is also bound to secrecy. A confession can be made without one if needed, a priest would give absolution as long as there are signs of contrition.

It is not the role of Confession to arbitrate between parties. Such mediation belongs outside confession. In confession, one accuses themselves of their faults, and the priest as judge questions their conscience, assigns penance and grants (or refuses, in some cases) absolution.

In a few rare cases, a priest may lack jurisdiction to absolve a particular sin (though such "reserved" sins essentially obsolete) or, still rare, to absolve at all (e.g if the penitent is excommunicated). In that case, the penitent must go to the bishop or sometimes Rome. Or more likely he grants the priest permission to ask Rome or his bishop (depending on the case) to absolve the censure. Even in these cases,a priest doesn't reveal the Confession

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:04 pm 
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The most commonly encountered reserved case is abortion, which, sadly, is so frequent that bishops in nearly every diocese have given their priests permanent faculties to forgive it.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The most commonly encountered reserved case is abortion, which, sadly, is so frequent that bishops in nearly every diocese have given their priests permanent faculties to forgive it.


Father, I thought Pope Francis made this the rule now (priest can forgive an abortion) regardless the Bishop?

I guess I’m remembering this incorrectly.....

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:46 pm 
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He did it for the Year of Mercy; if he made it permanent, I missed it (which doesn't matter personally because I already had that faculty).

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Quote:
12. Given this need, lest any obstacle arise between the request for reconciliation and God’s forgiveness, I henceforth grant to all priests, in virtue of their ministry, the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of procured abortion. The provision I had made in this regard, limited to the duration of the Extraordinary Holy Year,[14] is hereby extended, notwithstanding anything to the contrary. I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life. In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father. May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:56 pm 
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:salut:

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:18 pm 
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PseuTonym wrote:
If a confession is about a previous interaction with a third party, then a priest could -- without violating the laws of physics -- invite a Catholic who was an eyewitness to the interaction, and listen to both, with them able to hear each other, and agree upon at least some points.
He can also drink milk without violating the laws of physics. I have absolutely no idea what the point above is supposed to mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
PseuTonym wrote:
If a confession is about a previous interaction with a third party, then a priest could -- without violating the laws of physics -- invite a Catholic who was an eyewitness to the interaction, and listen to both, with them able to hear each other, and agree upon at least some points.
He can also drink milk without violating the laws of physics. I have absolutely no idea what the point above is supposed to mean.


I selected the phrase "without violating the laws of physics" in an attempt to indicate that I have no intention of saying what could be done while adhering to the present-day rules of the Catholic Church.

It's about the meaning of the word "could." When one uses the word "could" in a sentence to assert that something was or is an option, it is usually understood that, for example ...

1. there will be no immediate hazard to the life or limb of the person who is to perform the proposed action,
2. that in the jurisdiction where the action is to occur, the performance of the proposed action won't violate either criminal law or civil law,
3. etc.

Now, if I have been reading reliable sources of information about history, then for hundreds of years, Catholics couldn't enter into a contractual agreement to lend money if the contract required the borrower to return the principal and also pay money known as "interest" to a Catholic lender. If I'm not mistaken, for hundreds of years, such an agreement was a violation of the Catholic Church's rules against usury.

However, they could have entered into such an agreement without violating the laws of physics.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:27 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Some Lutherans practice confession, as Luther did.

Former protestant ministers are sometimes ordained in the Church. Their previous practices or beliefs are not relevant. If they have faculties to hear confession (it is very rare, outside of disciplinary action, for a priest not to) they follow the ritual of their rite (besides the predominant Latin rite, there are Eastern Catholic rites)

In all cases, confession is made privately. A priest may never reveal the contents directly or indirectly even if threatened with death. A priest who does so is excommunicated, and there is no mitigating the punishment. They must maintain the seal no matter what.

The only other person who may be present is an interpreter, e.g if the priest and penitent share no common language. The interpreter is also bound to secrecy. A confession can be made without one if needed, a priest would give absolution as long as there are signs of contrition.

It is not the role of Confession to arbitrate between parties. Such mediation belongs outside confession. In confession, one accuses themselves of their faults, and the priest as judge questions their conscience, assigns penance and grants (or refuses, in some cases) absolution.

In a few rare cases, a priest may lack jurisdiction to absolve a particular sin (though such "reserved" sins essentially obsolete) or, still rare, to absolve at all (e.g if the penitent is excommunicated). In that case, the penitent must go to the bishop or sometimes Rome. Or more likely he grants the priest permission to ask Rome or his bishop (depending on the case) to absolve the censure. Even in these cases,a priest doesn't reveal the Confession

Thank you for an excellent answer.
:salut:

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It is commonly believed that Newton showed that the world is a machine, following mechanical principles, and that we can therefore dismiss “the ghost in the machine,” the mind, with appropriate ridicule. The facts are the opposite [...] The mind-body problem in its scientific form did indeed vanish as unformulable, because one of its terms, body, does not exist in any intelligible form. Newton knew this very well, and so did his great contemporaries.

https://bit.ly/2Fcq0Rb


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:33 am 
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PseuTonym wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Some Lutherans practice confession, as Luther did.

Former protestant ministers are sometimes ordained in the Church. Their previous practices or beliefs are not relevant. If they have faculties to hear confession (it is very rare, outside of disciplinary action, for a priest not to) they follow the ritual of their rite (besides the predominant Latin rite, there are Eastern Catholic rites)

In all cases, confession is made privately. A priest may never reveal the contents directly or indirectly even if threatened with death. A priest who does so is excommunicated, and there is no mitigating the punishment. They must maintain the seal no matter what.

The only other person who may be present is an interpreter, e.g if the priest and penitent share no common language. The interpreter is also bound to secrecy. A confession can be made without one if needed, a priest would give absolution as long as there are signs of contrition.

It is not the role of Confession to arbitrate between parties. Such mediation belongs outside confession. In confession, one accuses themselves of their faults, and the priest as judge questions their conscience, assigns penance and grants (or refuses, in some cases) absolution.

In a few rare cases, a priest may lack jurisdiction to absolve a particular sin (though such "reserved" sins essentially obsolete) or, still rare, to absolve at all (e.g if the penitent is excommunicated). In that case, the penitent must go to the bishop or sometimes Rome. Or more likely he grants the priest permission to ask Rome or his bishop (depending on the case) to absolve the censure. Even in these cases,a priest doesn't reveal the Confession

Thank you for an excellent answer.
:salut:

Probably the best I've ever read.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:34 pm 
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PseuTonym wrote:
However, they could have entered into such an agreement without violating the laws of physics.
Yes, but why is that relevant?

And no, a priest cannot 'invite' anyone to be part of a confession. The person going to confession may be allowed to do so, but I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions about confession
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Do Protestant ministers hear confessions? In my Protty days, I attended just about every kind of church, and I never, EVER heard any Protestant pastor talk about hearing confessions. The closest thing I can think of is witnessing people saying “the sinner’s prayer” or other prayers, but never anything approximating the sacrament of reconciliation. They certainly aren’t bound by the seal of the confessional as Catholic priests are.

If it does exist at all, I’d guess it’s with Westminster Presbyterians or Episcopalians, with which I haven’t had a lot of experience - only one or two visits each.


Or, generically, Anglicans.

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