The Catholic Message Board
http://forums.avemariaradio.net/

Did Brutus sin?
http://forums.avemariaradio.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169633
Page 1 of 2

Author:  Jack3 [ Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Did Brutus sin?

Does fear that a particular administrator (Julius Caesar) might become a tyrant make his killing permissible?

Author:  Doom [ Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

No

Author:  Jack3 [ Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Are you replying to the question in the thread title or the question in the post content?

Author:  faithfulservant [ Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

#2 is my guess :fyi:

Author:  Highlander [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Yes. No.

Similarly with the other conspirators.

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

Author:  Peregrinator [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Jack3 wrote:
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

You can't commit evil so that good might follow

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Does this count as legitimate defense?

Author:  kage_ar [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Jack3 wrote:
Does this count as legitimate defense?


Only if Brutus happened upon Cesar killing a guy.

Author:  theJack [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?

Author:  Peetem [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

theJack wrote:
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?


All admins are at least oppressors. :fyi:

Author:  theJack [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

et tu, Peetem?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

theJack wrote:
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?

If?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Jack3 wrote:
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/?ref_=fn_al_tt_0

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

theJack wrote:
et tu, Peetem?

:laughhard

Author:  theJack [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
theJack wrote:
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?

If?

:(

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/?ref_=fn_al_tt_0

Maybe the difference in my question or at least in my reading of Jack's question is I sort of assume that a tyrant is one who has demonstrated their willingness to kill to achieve their ends. So, sure, there's the preventing future crimes angle; but more, there's a reaction to what you presently are based on past crimes. That seems to me to be what it means to be a tyrant rather than merely fear that someone will become a tyrant.

edit:

But most importantly:

Jack3 wrote:
theJack wrote:
et tu, Peetem?

:laughhard

:laughhard :laughhard

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

If I can kill to save my life, a soldier can kill for his country, etc then how is the scenario of killing any person who will kill another person? I think that's what T'm getting at.

Author:  theJack [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Jack3 wrote:
If I can kill to save my life, a soldier can kill for his country, etc then how is the scenario of killing any person who will kill another person? I think that's what T'm getting at.

I assume the difference goes back to this:

kage_ar wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Does this count as legitimate defense?


Only if Brutus happened upon Cesar killing a guy.

My understanding is that you can use lethal force to protect another that is in the process of trying to commit murder precisely because, in a case like that, lethal force is what would be likely (even if only considered prudentially) to save the person being killed. On the other hand, if you are aware of a conspiracy to murder, then lethal force is almost certainly not required to save the life of the other. Off the top of my head, you can share your knowledge with the proper authorities; you can warn the other person; if nothing else, you can stand guard for the other, and so on.

But, sure, if I see Caesar about to hack up some dude, and the only thing I can do to save the guy is to shiv 'em . . . well . . . if it must be, then so be it.

I think.

Author:  Jack3 [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Here, the hypothetical tyrant is the authority, and is presumably strong enough to defeat someone who stands guard.

Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Brutus sin?

Even were Brutus not a traitorous opportunist, to whom Caesar was greatly beneficent, the idea that Caesar was a tyrant is absurd to me, if we consider the state of Rome, he was a necessity.

But even if we consider him a tyrant, there is no support in Catholic tradition for tyrannicide. Even on a practical level, well here is Aquinas:

Quote:
For it may happen that those who act against the tyrant are unable to prevail and the tyrant then will rage the more. But should one be able to prevail against the tyrant, from this fact itself very grave dissensions among the people frequently ensue: the multitude may be broken up into factions either during their revolt against the tyrant, or in process of the organization of the government, after the tyrant has been overthrown. Moreover, it sometimes happens that while the multitude is driving out the tyrant by the help of some man, the latter, having received the power, thereupon seizes the tyranny. Then, fearing to suffer from another what he did to his predecessor, he oppresses his subjects with an even more grievous slavery. This is wont to happen in tyranny, namely, that the second becomes more grievous than the one preceding, inasmuch as, without abandoning the previous oppressions, he himself thinks up fresh ones from the malice of his heart. Whence in Syracuse, at a time when everyone desired the death of Dionysius, a certain old woman kept constantly praying that he might be unharmed and that he might survive her. When the tyrant learned this he asked why she did it. Then she said: “When I was a girl we had a harsh tyrant and I wished for his death; when he was killed, there succeeded him one who was a little harsher. I was very eager to see the end of his dominion also, and we began to have a third ruler still more harsh—that was you. So if you should be taken away, a worse would succeed in your place.”

If the excess of tyranny is unbearable, some have been of the opinion that it would be an act of virtue for strong men to slay the tyrant and to expose themselves to the danger of death in order to set the multitude free. An example of this occurs even in the Old Testament, for a certain Aioth slew Eglon, King of Moab, who was oppressing the people of God under harsh slavery, thrusting a dagger into his thigh; and he was made a judge of the people [Judges 3:14 ff].

But this opinion is not in accord with apostolic teaching. For Peter admonishes us to be reverently subject to our masters, not only to the good and gentle but also the froward [1 Pet 2:18-19]: “For if one who suffers unjustly bear his trouble for conscience’ sake, this is grace.” Wherefore, when many emperors of the Romans tyrannically persecuted the faith of Christ, a great number both of the nobility and the common people were converted to the faith and were praised for patiently bearing death for Christ. They did not resist although they were armed, and this is plainly manifested in the case of the holy Theban legion.” Aioth, then, must be considered rather as having slain a foe than assassinated a ruler, however tyrannical, of the people. Hence in the Old Testament we also read that they who killed Joas, the king of Juda, who had fallen away from the worship of God, were slain and their children spared according to the precept of the law” (2 Sam 14:5-6).

Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/