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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
[
Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.


I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?



If your words aren't a personal attack, I don't know what is.....while mild, they clearly suggest something that's simply not true.


You don't appear to understand the difference between expressing disagreement with a person's point of view and an ad hominem attack.


There is an art to countering an argument without making personal references.

For example, I would have said (if I were you), "There is a common belief that stoners sit around watching reruns of old TV shows and eating non-stop. However, this is a stereotype that isn't completely correct. With the new strains of MJ introduced the induced 'high' actually can be invigorating and not result in the person being a 'mind-numbed stoner.' "

And to continue I would have not said that I had a "...selective way you have chosen to express your preference" but something like, "to be fair, there are drunks [alcohol] as well as stoners [MJ]. Neither group is better than the other."

See how I countered in a way that wasn't personal?

Just trying to help here....

When you accused me of "ad hominem's", was that not personal?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

I went to grad school in Berkeley, so yeah, not exactly ignorant about the culture here!

BTW, here are some studies. NB, contra the strawmen and long list of fallacies Denise is hurling, I need to clarify- yet again- that "not aiding" is not the same as "harming". The point is that the sort of conviviality that justifies imperfect inebriation with alcohol, as exemplified in the Symposium, e.g., is not advanced by marijuana. But I will say that often, not always, marijuana does have a detrimental effect on such conviviality.

But here are some studies

https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/pub ... nnabis.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230709/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2676780/

https://www.rand.org/pubs/external_publ ... 51651.html

PED, I will do my best to take Peetem's advice and try not to make this in any way personal, but NONE of those studies say anything about conviviality or lack of conviviality in regard to marijuana use. They are ALL just studies about some of the effects of marijuana, highlighting some of the negative effects. I have not for one moment disputed that there can be negative effects in taking marijuana, but there can also be negative effects in taking alcohol. For example, the last article in your list is entitled "Cannabis Use and Antisocial Behavior Among Youth" and the "Key Findings" are:

"There is a large, positive, robust relationship between cannabis use and antisocial behavior among young adults.

Levels of antisocial behavior are higher among persistent, heavy, or dependent users."

But this is entirely irrelevant to the issue I have disputed because if you google "Alcohol and Antisocial Behavior Among Youth" you will get many more studies highlighting the antisocial effects of alcohol. Nowhere in any of the studies you have posted is there anything to support your rosy view of conviviality in alcohol use compared to marijuana use.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are different strains of marijuana, some of which are particularly suitable as a social lubricant, and others not. I don't think you have enough knowledge or experience of marijuana to make the conviviality point you are making compared with alcohol, and that's not meant to be a personal criticism of you, far from it, it's just a valid point which I think needs to be made in this whole discussion, no need for anyone to get annoyed about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
How do you know that they are smoking pot, or that they are only smoking pot and not also on some other drugs?


Have you ever smelled pot?

The heavy dopers don't usually hang out at the downtown bars where there are lots of tourists.

That's a fair enough point about the smell of pot but you don't know how much they are smoking or what else they may be taking, or have taken before going to the bar. Presumably if they are in a bar they are also taking alcohol.

One group in a bar whom you know little about is not representative, some people undoubtedly abuse marijuana just as some people undoubtedly abuse alcohol and become antisocial but that doesn't mean all marijuana and alcohol users become antisocial.

There are different strains of marijuana, some of which are particularly suitable as a social lubricant, and others not.


No, I didn't take a poll, but neither can you say my observations are invalid.

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