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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:16 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

Why not?

Do you believe recreational use of tobacco, i.e. smoking cigarettes, can be morally justified?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:53 am 
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Quote:
such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view

Friendly advice: The word "outdated" has been overused so some people find it off-putting.

Quote:
I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?

PED is neva eva factually wrong!


Denise Dee wrote:
But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc

I agree. *(I'm not agreeing with what you, or anyone else here, says on marijuana simply because I know absolutely nothing about it. But I know about alcohol through my experiences (not that I've drunk it myself) and I am rather sensitive about it).

Or I agree with everything other than "obstreperous" - I'm gonna have to Google what that means.
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

Why not?

Do you believe recreational use of tobacco, i.e. smoking cigarettes, can be morally justified?

:popcorn

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:43 am 
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I have traveled to Colorado. During that visit, my one taste of a special chocolate bon-bon left me pain free for hours without the "baked" feeling. In fact, that was the last time I have been pain free.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:45 am 
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Just as an FYI, the most recent, extensive studies I know are from Hebrew University

https://cannabinoids.huji.ac.il/

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.

You could have said "I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of creative folks at a marijuana dinner party as I do at a local dive with a group of drunken deadbeats sitting around talking incoherently and eating junk food", but instead you chose to paint the rosiest picture of a group of drinkers and an entirely negative picture of a group of marijuana users.

I don't know what "data points" you are talking about, but I simply know from my own experience that the picture you and PED are painting of marijuana users, compared to alcohol users, is not based on reality. I know plenty of people who use marijuana in social situations who are more convivial than I am either when I'm sober or after I've had a few drinks. And I know many situations when I've been in or near a group of alcohol drinkers when it has been the opposite of "convivial".

I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?


Oh good grief. There's no bias. I couldn't care less if people use or not. I actually voted to legalize it in Arkansas.

Quit wearing your feelings on your sleeve.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:43 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.


I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?


When I started this thread I was going to add the caveat, like it did in another thread, that I wanted the opinions of those who were strong-practicing Catholics who were solid in their knowledge of the faith. I didn't with this one to my regret.

While I don't always agree with PED, I have found him to be absolutely solid in his faith and in explanation of moral matters. The same applies to Fr. Obi and a host of others on the board.

We may not always agree, but I find their reasoning solid.

So no offense Denise, but I don't find your ad hominem's to be all that persuasive to your cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.


I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?


When I started this thread I was going to add the caveat, like it did in another thread, that I wanted the opinions of those who were strong-practicing Catholics who were solid in their knowledge of the faith. I didn't with this one to my regret.

While I don't always agree with PED, I have found him to be absolutely solid in his faith and in explanation of moral matters. The same applies to Fr. Obi and a host of others on the board.

We may not always agree, but I find their reasoning solid.

So no offense Denise, but I don't find your ad hominem's to be all that persuasive to your cause.

There's absolutely no ad hominem on my part. Nor have I expressed any opinion on the morality of marijuana, one way or the other. I'm simply pointing out that to suggest that marijuana users become less convivial, as compared with alcohol users, is simply unjustified and does not correspond with my experience. If my opinion annoys you, I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean that if someone says something which I believe is untrue I should not give my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Quote:
such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view

Friendly advice: The word "outdated" has been overused so some people find it off-putting.


So what word would you suggest instead to convey that if something was ever true, maybe 40 or 50 years ago, it is no longer true, that if it was ever true that typical marijuana users were lethargic unsociable introverts who desired nothing more than to lie around listening to The Grateful Dead or watching Batman reruns, it is certainly not true nowadays?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:27 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
[
Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.


I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?



If your words aren't a personal attack, I don't know what is.....while mild, they clearly suggest something that's simply not true.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:28 pm 
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learn something new every day.... had no idea stoners watched batman reruns.... i assume it is the original adam west batman? 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
[
Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.


I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?



If your words aren't a personal attack, I don't know what is.....while mild, they clearly suggest something that's simply not true.

You don't appear to understand the difference between expressing disagreement with a person's point of view and an ad hominem attack.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:39 pm 
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I can go to just about any bar in downtown Nashville and tell you the ones drinking booze, and the ones who have been smoking pot. The boozers, (not counting the drunks, here, just the social drinkers), are laughing, swapping stories, talking across tables, yelling encouragement to the band, just generally a friendly bunch. The pot smokers are huddled at their own table, usually in the darkest corner of the room, make frequent trips to the back alley, not socializing with anyone outside of their own little group. They're there to score or deal, not socialize.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:40 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Quote:
such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view

Friendly advice: The word "outdated" has been overused so some people find it off-putting.

Quote:
I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?

PED is neva eva factually wrong!

I don't think it's a fact that marijuana "does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol", and if PED is claiming it's a fact, I'd like to see some evidence for that fact such as a citation for even just one of the clinical studies he has said he has read.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
I can go to just about any bar in downtown Nashville and tell you the ones drinking booze, and the ones who have been smoking pot. The boozers, (not counting the drunks, here, just the social drinkers), are laughing, swapping stories, talking across tables, yelling encouragement to the band, just generally a friendly bunch. The pot smokers are huddled at their own table, usually in the darkest corner of the room, make frequent trips to the back alley, not socializing with anyone outside of their own little group. They're there to score or deal, not socialize.

How do you know that they are smoking pot, or that they are only smoking pot and not also on some other drugs?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

I went to grad school in Berkeley, so yeah, not exactly ignorant about the culture here!

BTW, here are some studies. NB, contra the strawmen and long list of fallacies Denise is hurling, I need to clarify- yet again- that "not aiding" is not the same as "harming". The point is that the sort of conviviality that justifies imperfect inebriation with alcohol, as exemplified in the Symposium, e.g., is not advanced by marijuana. But I will say that often, not always, marijuana does have a detrimental effect on such conviviality.

But here are some studies

https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/pub ... nnabis.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230709/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2676780/

https://www.rand.org/pubs/external_publ ... 51651.html

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

Why not?

Do you believe recreational use of tobacco, i.e. smoking cigarettes, can be morally justified?

That is not comparable.

The issue here, or at least the one being addressed, is the effect on the faculty of reason. Alcohol has a range of effects, ranging from negligible (morally acceptable), moderate (imperfect inebriation, which is in itself a venial sin, and can be justified by a just cause), and grave (perfect inebriation, mortal sin unless justified by a grave cause)

Now tobacco, whatever else may be said of it, has no negative effect on the use of reason. Au contraire, in increases concentration and stimulates neurons (indeed nicotine has been investigated in treatments for certain neurological disorders).

Any moral judgment against it would have to be predicated on other grounds.

Now I have tried to have patience with you and deal with you fairly. But you are not demonstrating a like willingness.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
How do you know that they are smoking pot, or that they are only smoking pot and not also on some other drugs?


Have you ever smelled pot?

The heavy dopers don't usually hang out at the downtown bars where there are lots of tourists.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:58 pm 
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I vape, with my doctor's approval. I vape at 0.3% nicotine. It helps with my ADHD, lowers my blood sugar, and it helps keep my weight down. My lungs are clear after two years of vaping.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
[
Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.


I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?



If your words aren't a personal attack, I don't know what is.....while mild, they clearly suggest something that's simply not true.


You don't appear to understand the difference between expressing disagreement with a person's point of view and an ad hominem attack.


There is an art to countering an argument without making personal references.

For example, I would have said (if I were you), "There is a common belief that stoners sit around watching reruns of old TV shows and eating non-stop. However, this is a stereotype that isn't completely correct. With the new strains of MJ introduced the induced 'high' actually can be invigorating and not result in the person being a 'mind-numbed stoner.' "

And to continue I would have not said that I had a "...selective way you have chosen to express your preference" but something like, "to be fair, there are drunks [alcohol] as well as stoners [MJ]. Neither group is better than the other."

See how I countered in a way that wasn't personal?

Just trying to help here....

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:09 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
How do you know that they are smoking pot, or that they are only smoking pot and not also on some other drugs?


Have you ever smelled pot?

The heavy dopers don't usually hang out at the downtown bars where there are lots of tourists.

That's a fair enough point about the smell of pot but you don't know how much they are smoking or what else they may be taking, or have taken before going to the bar. Presumably if they are in a bar they are also taking alcohol.

One group in a bar whom you know little about is not representative, some people undoubtedly abuse marijuana just as some people undoubtedly abuse alcohol and become antisocial but that doesn't mean all marijuana and alcohol users become antisocial.

There are different strains of marijuana, some of which are particularly suitable as a social lubricant, and others not.


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