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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)


From what I've seen, "tipsy" makes the drinker lose empathy give himself to bitterness and to a veritable, albeit temporary, insanity. Hence, I utterly detest drinking and find even its odour repugnant.

I'm not sure how you define "tipsy". At what point does drinking a glass or two of wine become a sin?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:43 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)


From what I've seen, "tipsy" makes the drinker lose empathy give himself to bitterness and to a veritable, albeit temporary, insanity. Hence, I utterly detest drinking and find even its odour repugnant.


I certainly appreciate your position. However, I have seen quite the opposite; especially during celebrations like weddings and the like.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:57 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol

On what do you base your claim that marijuana "does not aid with conviviality"?

Observation, talking with pot users about their experience, and reading clinical studies.

And you, what do you base your ideas on?

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)


From what I've seen, "tipsy" makes the drinker lose empathy give himself to bitterness and to a veritable, albeit temporary, insanity. Hence, I utterly detest drinking and find even its odour repugnant.

I don't think you are understanding the word tipsy. By definition, one that gives in to a veritable insanity would be perfectly inebriated, not tipsy.

Note, that people vary greatly, and the effects of alcohol also vary by circumstances

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:48 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

I have an inclination to agree with this, but I'd like something to fall back on to justify my aversion to this other than my utter dislike of pot-heads and hippies.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)


From what I've seen, "tipsy" makes the drinker lose empathy give himself to bitterness and to a veritable, albeit temporary, insanity. Hence, I utterly detest drinking and find even its odour repugnant.

I don't think you are understanding the word tipsy. By definition, one that gives in to a veritable insanity would be perfectly inebriated, not tipsy.

Note, that people vary greatly, and the effects of alcohol also vary by circumstances


Even without being completely out of their senses, drinking people can hurt others in different ways.

I have witnessed this (a drinking person lose empathy and give himself to bitterness) firsthand.

Like the cat in Thennali Raman's story, my lips are burnt.

That is why I am disgusted by alcoholic drinks.

I'm not saying that drinking is always wrong. I'm saying that I am personally scarred and horrified and disgusted enough to stay far away from that thing for my lifetime.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:09 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)


From what I've seen, "tipsy" makes the drinker lose empathy give himself to bitterness and to a veritable, albeit temporary, insanity. Hence, I utterly detest drinking and find even its odour repugnant.

I don't think you are understanding the word tipsy. By definition, one that gives in to a veritable insanity would be perfectly inebriated, not tipsy.

Note, that people vary greatly, and the effects of alcohol also vary by circumstances


Thank you PED. That helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:17 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I'm not sure how you define "tipsy". At what point does drinking a glass or two of wine become a sin?

I think people are using "tipsy" in an equivocal way. Drinking a glass or two of wine is certainly not a sin (it could be for some people, e.g. alcoholics, or those for whom alcohol is unusually intoxicating); under normal conditions, it wouldn't even make one tipsy, but just pleasantly buzzed.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol

On what do you base your claim that marijuana "does not aid with conviviality"?

Observation, talking with pot users about their experience, and reading clinical studies.

And you, what do you base your ideas on?

I can't imagine how clinical studies could show that marijuana doesn't aid with conviviality as it's illegal and therefore any resemblance of a marijuana/conviviality clinical study to real life is highly unlikely.

In my limited experience marijuana aids conviviality no less than alcohol. But as you yourself say, PED, "Note, that people vary greatly, and the effects of alcohol also vary by circumstances". Similarly, note, that people vary greatly, and the effects of marijuana also vary by circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:02 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I'm not sure how you define "tipsy". At what point does drinking a glass or two of wine become a sin?

I think people are using "tipsy" in an equivocal way. Drinking a glass or two of wine is certainly not a sin (it could be for some people, e.g. alcoholics, or those for whom alcohol is unusually intoxicating); under normal conditions, it wouldn't even make one tipsy, but just pleasantly buzzed.

So after one or two or a few glasses of wine how would I know whether I'm "just pleasantly buzzed", which is not a sin, or "tipsy" which is a sin?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:35 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I'm not sure how you define "tipsy". At what point does drinking a glass or two of wine become a sin?

I think people are using "tipsy" in an equivocal way. Drinking a glass or two of wine is certainly not a sin (it could be for some people, e.g. alcoholics, or those for whom alcohol is unusually intoxicating); under normal conditions, it wouldn't even make one tipsy, but just pleasantly buzzed.

So after one or two or a few glasses of wine how would I know whether I'm "just pleasantly buzzed", which is not a sin, or "tipsy" which is a sin?


Denise -

I chose the word "tipsy" in my OP when I really meant "buzzed". However, the difference is real, even if we are making semantic argument. As I see it (and this is solely my opinion and my way of making distinction):

There's buzzed - I can still use my intellect to instruct my will about what is right and wrong.
There's "tipsy" - I cannot fully use my intellect to instruct my will about what is right and wrong, but perhaps more often than not (e.g., 6 out of 10 times)
There's "drunk" - I cannot use my intellect at all to instruct my will about what is right and wrong.

Does this help?

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:57 am 
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Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:18 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?

I don't believe this condition can be met.


Misspent youth.... it can be met

Unfortunately, I misspent my youth in ways that I think are quite similar to the way you misspent your youth. I stand by the claim condition two can't be met. Unless you just had plain poor weed down in your neck of the woods. Ours was kick butt.

Oh, and I agree with PED. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:59 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?

I don't believe this condition can be met.


Misspent youth.... it can be met

Unfortunately, I misspent my youth in ways that I think are quite similar to the way you misspent your youth. I stand by the claim condition two can't be met. Unless you just had plain poor weed down in your neck of the woods. Ours was kick butt.

Oh, and I agree with PED. :fyi:


Literally made me laugh out loud for the first time in a LLLOOONNNGGG time.

Let's just say in the periods of my misspent youth, I was a happy, chatty (as in "someone please sit her down and shut her up") person during periods of misspending.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I'm not sure how you define "tipsy". At what point does drinking a glass or two of wine become a sin?

I think people are using "tipsy" in an equivocal way. Drinking a glass or two of wine is certainly not a sin (it could be for some people, e.g. alcoholics, or those for whom alcohol is unusually intoxicating); under normal conditions, it wouldn't even make one tipsy, but just pleasantly buzzed.

So after one or two or a few glasses of wine how would I know whether I'm "just pleasantly buzzed", which is not a sin, or "tipsy" which is a sin?


Denise -

I chose the word "tipsy" in my OP when I really meant "buzzed". However, the difference is real, even if we are making semantic argument. As I see it (and this is solely my opinion and my way of making distinction):

There's buzzed - I can still use my intellect to instruct my will about what is right and wrong.
There's "tipsy" - I cannot fully use my intellect to instruct my will about what is right and wrong, but perhaps more often than not (e.g., 6 out of 10 times)
There's "drunk" - I cannot use my intellect at all to instruct my will about what is right and wrong.

Does this help?

I'll let you know after the next time I have a few glasses of wine.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:21 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:27 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
gherkin wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?

I don't believe this condition can be met.


Misspent youth.... it can be met

Unfortunately, I misspent my youth in ways that I think are quite similar to the way you misspent your youth. I stand by the claim condition two can't be met. Unless you just had plain poor weed down in your neck of the woods. Ours was kick butt.

Oh, and I agree with PED. :fyi:


Literally made me laugh out loud for the first time in a LLLOOONNNGGG time.

Let's just say in the periods of my misspent youth, I was a happy, chatty (as in "someone please sit her down and shut her up") person during periods of misspending.


I smiled as well.

I had misspent youth too. I do not think that one always gets "baked" but can quite easily reach a middle point between sober and stoned depending on the quantity consumed.

There are several reasons for my OP. One is so I can better educate our many children when the issue arises. Another is so that I can vote in good conscience for or against its legalization. But lastly, I suffer from chronic (no pun intended) migraines. I can go weeks without, and then I get them several times a week for a month. I have rescue medicine that knocks out the pain, but it makes me feel like utter crapola. I also take preventive medicine that helps prevent onsets, but its far from perfect. I have researched every medicine on the market, including marijuana. Apparently the stuff really does work for those folks like me. I could take a little at bedtime and migraines no more....

All that being said, I am loathe to use the stuff and don't think I will. But, I would really like to be rid of these degum headaches.....so its something I've been researching.

So thanks for everyone's responses....

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Last edited by Peetem on Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:30 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:45 am 
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Peetem wrote:
All that being said, I am loathe to use the stuff and don't think I will. But, I would really like to be rid of these degum headaches.....so its something I've been researching.

I don't think there's any doubt but that one can use marijuana therapeutically.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:47 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise, there have been plenty of studies. There is a misperception of those high about some of the effects on themselves. What we do know is that in some it causes paranoia, in especially the young it increases anxiety, and CUD worsens depression. Now in those who do not get aggressive, paranoid, increased anxiety, which is a good many granted, it still does not aid conviviality... Not in the classical sense. Plato's Symposium is quite different than feeling a sense of profundity at idiotic comments or because of sensory processing delays (as THC directly affects synaptic connections).

Well of course there are plenty of studies showing the negative psychological effects of marijuana. But there are also many well-known negative psychological effects of alcohol, it sometimes makes some people disagreeable, intolerant, short-tempered, angry, aggressive, rude, crude, tactless, insensitive, unruly, obstreperous, self-pitying, self-centred, morose, etc, and yet nevertheless you say alcohol aids conviviality. I'm not disputing that marijuana sometimes affects some people negatively. What I'm disputing is your claim that, unlike alcohol, marijuana "does not aid with conviviality". There is no justification for that claim in my experience. If you are saying there are plenty of clinical studies which support your view that, compared to alcohol, marijuana does not aid with conviviality, can you show me even just one clinical study supporting your claim?


Denise -

I've been very close was in the middle of the MJ culture. I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of stoners sitting around watching Batman reruns and eating pizza as I do at the local Tavern with a group of folks watching a football game.

If I didn't have LOTS of data points on this issue, I would agree with you. However I do, so in this case I defer to PED.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Peetem

Peetem, you and PED have such a prejudiced outdated false stereotyped view of marijuana users that I feel the need to point out that it's not the reality.

You are entitled to prefer to be in the company of drinkers than marijuana users but look at the selective way you have chosen to express your preference. You refer to the alcohol drinking group as "folks" whereas the group of marijuana users are "stoners". You could have referred to the alcohol group as "drunks" or the marijuana group as "folks", but you chose your words with a clear bias.

You could have said "I don't find nearly the conviviality in a group of creative folks at a marijuana dinner party as I do at a local dive with a group of drunken deadbeats sitting around talking incoherently and eating junk food", but instead you chose to paint the rosiest picture of a group of drinkers and an entirely negative picture of a group of marijuana users.

I don't know what "data points" you are talking about, but I simply know from my own experience that the picture you and PED are painting of marijuana users, compared to alcohol users, is not based on reality. I know plenty of people who use marijuana in social situations who are more convivial than I am either when I'm sober or after I've had a few drinks. And I know many situations when I've been in or near a group of alcohol drinkers when it has been the opposite of "convivial".

I don't know why you would "defer to PED" on this issue, what particular expertise or experience does he have on this issue of conviviality in alcohol use compared with marijuana use?


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