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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:43 pm 
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*sigh* nevermind

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Fr. B*****t is in the middle of a $10 million dollar program to build a new parish which, from the architects renderings, will be beautiful and distinctly Catholic. I can only hope that when he does, the schlocky music, the altar girls, the "table in the round" altar, and the "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" will also go. The Roman Church has a long way to go to recover what she has lost, which is the distinctiveness of the Catholic faith.

*extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" ftfy :fyi: :wave

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Last edited by faithfulservant on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:35 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
I'm not aware of any surveys that show that evangelicals are all that more biblically literate than Catholics.


What I said is that there is no evidence I am aware of that, on average, Protestants have a significantly better knowledge of the Bible than Catholics, or indeed, than the general population.

I don't see how these statements are significantly different. I'm speaking specifically of "evangelicals," but that's because the OP speaks of evangelicals. Outside of that, I think we're saying the same thing.

On the other hand, I appreciate your objection, because now it doesn't have to appear that I agree with you. :cloud9: :cloud9:


I guess I had a dyslexic moment because I read your sentence backward, I thought you were claiming that I had said that Catholics are more Biblically literate than Protestants. :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
I know that most converts here will know this. The reason that Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, are so good with their interpretation of Scripture is that the sermon is the main focus of their worship and it can sometimes run to 1/2 hour of teaching, complete with cross-referencing verses and some Greek.

It's not worship. It's a religious schooling session with grape juice and crackers at the end.

Half an hour?!? In my fundamentalist evangelical days, if the sermon was less than 45 minutes long, folks would wonder if Preacher was feeling well. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm 
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45 minutes still seems awfully short, in a good Baptist church you're going to get a 2-3 hour sermon.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Doom wrote:
45 minutes still seems awfully short, in a good Baptist church you're going to get a 2-3 hour sermon.


in the good baptist church which i attended while growing up it was always about a 2 hour service.... maybe 10 minutes longer occasionally .... however when the altar call became longer than the sermon, you could count on a 2-3 hour service...leaning heavily to the higher number.... i don't recall a 2+ hour sermon though.... and that was from any baptist church i visited or attended, which i can probably count on one hand....which ain't too bad for a baptist 8-) ::):

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:23 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
Doom wrote:
45 minutes still seems awfully short, in a good Baptist church you're going to get a 2-3 hour sermon.


in the good baptist church which i attended while growing up it was always about a 2 hour service.... maybe 10 minutes longer occasionally .... however when the altar call became longer than the sermon, you could count on a 2-3 hour service...leaning heavily to the higher number.... i don't recall a 2+ hour sermon though.... and that was from any baptist church i visited or attended, which i can probably count on one hand....which ain't too bad for a baptist 8-) ::):


And remember, 28 choruses of "Just as I am Without One Pleas" are not too many if that's what it takes to get one "decision for Jesus."


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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Doom wrote:
45 minutes still seems awfully short, in a good Baptist church you're going to get a 2-3 hour sermon.


I wouldn't know about good Baptist churches. But mine was urban, large, and ran to 30+ minute sermons in a hour+ service.

I never attended any Baptist service with even an hour sermon.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:38 am 
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Think I'll get this...

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:38 pm 
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The one Baptist service I have attended in my lifetime was over 4 hours long, I'll admit I don't know how long the sermon was but only because we all left before it was over. A 45-minute sermon would be nothing given that 45 minutes was the length of the average HYMN, the hymns were simple gospel music style hymns which had about 3 lines of lyrics which were repeated approximately 7500 times, there was a full band with electric guitar and drums, each song had several extended guitar solos, and at least one had about a 20 minute drum solo.

Back before I attended this service, which I did with a bunch of other people, I thought that the 1979 movie 'The Blues Brothers' was exaggerating when it showed a Baptist service that went like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbq0OuJtErs


In retrospect, however, it was pretty accurate, except for the backflips, there wasn't anyone doing backflips at the service I attended

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The one Baptist service I have attended in my lifetime was over 4 hours long, I'll admit I don't know how long the sermon was but only because we all left before it was over. A 45-minute sermon would be nothing given that 45 minutes was the length of the average HYMN, the hymns were simple gospel music style hymns which had about 3 lines of lyrics which were repeated approximately 7500 times, there was a full band with electric guitar and drums, each song had several extended guitar solos, and at least one had about a 20 minute drum solo.

Back before I attended this service, which I did with a bunch of other people, I thought that the 1979 movie 'The Blues Brothers' was exaggerating when it showed a Baptist service that went like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbq0OuJtErs


In retrospect, however, it was pretty accurate, except for the backflips, there wasn't anyone doing backflips at the service I attended

That sounds like a "contemporary" service, and if so, I doubt the worship leader (as they like to be called) would have termed the praise chorus they were singing a "hymn." As I'm sure you know, but for the benefit of others who might not, the contemporary/seeker-sensitive movement that has so dramatically affected evangelical churches (maybe others, but I evangelical I know, for sure--especially of the non-denominational, baptistic, and Assembly of God variety) have very much shied away from hymns in favor of CCM ("contemporary Christian music"). Some CCM artists have in the past decade or so taken to rewriting old hymns in the CCM style, and so you have newer renditions of The Wonderful Cross and even Amazing Grace and myiards of others. But in any case, the methodology for writing an old-style hymn is just different than for writing a CCM song. The former don't lend themselves to repeated stanzas; the latter rely heavily on them as a means of tapping into and heightening an emotional element. And yes, some of those choruses can be repeated many, many, many times. Without any exaggeration at all, I've been in services where a single song with its repeated stanzas went on for almost twenty minutes.

Having said all that, the longest Baptist services I've ever been in have all been well under two hours. Exceptions could be made for certain specialized revival meetings. Those could be two to four hours, but they were always advertised as such and certainly weren't anything like the rule. So while I'm not at all questioning whether or not things happened exactly as you described in your particular experience, I would hope that people would know that your experience is very far from the norm in the Baptist and non-denominational world. A normal service tends to be a little over an hour, roughly divided into two halves: the "praise and worship" portion and the preaching portion. Each run about thirty minutes with time allotted before and after for things like announcements, an extended altar call if necessary, special music, and so on.

One exception to all this is certain ethnic corners of the Baptist and Pentecostal worlds. It would not be uncommon, for instance, for a black Southern Baptist church to run close to two hours as the norm. They can easily sing "spirituals" that can run into those twenty minute marks. They can have extended time of corporate prayer and they are known to allow and encourage testimony of God's grace in their lives. After all that, there's the joke that if a preacher goes less than thirty minutes, he's lazy! I had a very good friend in Bible college who told me that he made it a point to make sure his basic sermon was about forty minutes, and AFTER all that, it's often expected the preacher do a little "hoopin'." I'd never heard it and wouldn't believe if I'd not seen it with my own eyes. After his forty minute message, he warmed up and "hooped" for a solid twenty minutes. I asked him about it later and he described it as "a Black Baptist" thing (although some white Pentecostal preachers try to do it . . . not very well in my opinion!) and said it was like the "dessert." So all in all he preached for nearly an hour. Add that to an hour of singing and testifying, and it wouldn't be uncommon at all to have a two hour+ regular service. But, again, that's in a particular niche of the Baptist world. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The one Baptist service I have attended in my lifetime was over 4 hours long, I'll admit I don't know how long the sermon was but only because we all left before it was over. A 45-minute sermon would be nothing given that 45 minutes was the length of the average HYMN, the hymns were simple gospel music style hymns which had about 3 lines of lyrics which were repeated approximately 7500 times, there was a full band with electric guitar and drums, each song had several extended guitar solos, and at least one had about a 20 minute drum solo.

Back before I attended this service, which I did with a bunch of other people, I thought that the 1979 movie 'The Blues Brothers' was exaggerating when it showed a Baptist service that went like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbq0OuJtErs


In retrospect, however, it was pretty accurate, except for the backflips, there wasn't anyone doing backflips at the service I attended


Perhaps. just perhaps, there was some sort of difference between that experience and the urban Southern Baptist church I attended for roughly 15 years. Which did acquire a 25-30 piece orchestra in the latter part of that period. Hymns were hymns and traditional and familiar. No hymn would last over 5-6 minutes, depending on the number of verses. Yes, "Just As I Am" could be stretched out, during the invitation, if required. But try the Broadman Hymnal; samples of content are available on line (I still have one, somewhere in the house). "What A Friend We Have in Jesus", "I Come To The Garden Alone", "Joyful, Joyful We Adore thee", "Christ The Lord Is Risen Today", "There Is A Fountain Filled With Blood", "I Surrender All",... I could go one. Average, 4 verses. I can still sing most of them.

That is to say, perhaps there are differences in Baptist churches. In fact, I'd strongly bet on it. Generalizing might not be generally accurate. Or perhaps a sample of one might not be typical. Sort of why I always suggest in depth reading, before drawing conclusions from minuscule samples. As for me, no Baptist church I attended differed in any significant way from my accustomed experience. TheJack has some good observations. Let us note that my Baptist tour was in the early 50s-late 60s. Antediluvian, to be sure.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:14 pm 
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"I Could Sing of Your Love Forever." 45 seconds of words, if that, but capable of being repeated endlessly.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"I Could Sing of Your Love Forever." 45 seconds of words, if that, but capable of being repeated endlessly.



Doubt that it is in my Broadman.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:54 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
The one Baptist service I have attended in my lifetime was over 4 hours long, I'll admit I don't know how long the sermon was but only because we all left before it was over. A 45-minute sermon would be nothing given that 45 minutes was the length of the average HYMN, the hymns were simple gospel music style hymns which had about 3 lines of lyrics which were repeated approximately 7500 times, there was a full band with electric guitar and drums, each song had several extended guitar solos, and at least one had about a 20 minute drum solo.

Back before I attended this service, which I did with a bunch of other people, I thought that the 1979 movie 'The Blues Brothers' was exaggerating when it showed a Baptist service that went like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbq0OuJtErs


In retrospect, however, it was pretty accurate, except for the backflips, there wasn't anyone doing backflips at the service I attended


Perhaps. just perhaps, there was some sort of difference between that experience and the urban Southern Baptist church I attended for roughly 15 years. Which did acquire a 25-30 piece orchestra in the latter part of that period. Hymns were hymns and traditional and familiar. No hymn would last over 5-6 minutes, depending on the number of verses. Yes, "Just As I Am" could be stretched out, during the invitation, if required. But try the Broadman Hymnal; samples of content are available on line (I still have one, somewhere in the house). "What A Friend We Have in Jesus", "I Come To The Garden Alone", "Joyful, Joyful We Adore thee", "Christ The Lord Is Risen Today", "There Is A Fountain Filled With Blood", "I Surrender All",... I could go one. Average, 4 verses. I can still sing most of them.

That is to say, perhaps there are differences in Baptist churches. In fact, I'd strongly bet on it. Generalizing might not be generally accurate. Or perhaps a sample of one might not be typical. Sort of why I always suggest in depth reading, before drawing conclusions from minuscule samples. As for me, no Baptist church I attended differed in any significant way from my accustomed experience. TheJack has some good observations. Let us note that my Baptist tour was in the early 50s-late 60s. Antediluvian, to be sure.


sometimes i astound myself... thanks for taking me back to the late 60s :cloud9:

"The antediluvian kings colonised the world"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbHJGVMB-k4

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:15 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"I Could Sing of Your Love Forever." 45 seconds of words, if that, but capable of being repeated endlessly.



Doubt that it is in my Broadman.

Most likely not.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:30 pm 
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I should point out that it was a black Baptist church, not a white one, and it was on the South Side of Chicago, the home of the 'Chicago Blues' style of music. For pure entertainment value, I give it an A+, on theology, I give it a D-.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Doom wrote:
I should point out that it was a black Baptist church, not a white one, and it was on the South Side of Chicago, the home of the 'Chicago Blues' style of music. For pure entertainment value, I give it an A+, on theology, I give it a D-.


Imagine my surprise.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Surprise that I was describing a black church or surprise that I didn't like the theology?

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Surprise that I was describing a black church or surprise that I didn't like the theology?


Surprise that there are Baptist churches, and then there are Baptist churches. You know...differences. Like I said.

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