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 Post subject: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:30 pm 
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NEW BIBLE PUBLISHED TO HELP CATHOLICS CATCH UP WITH PROTESTANTS IN SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE

"Bible scholars have developed a new edition of the Bible designed to help everyday Catholics overcome the notion that scripture study is particular to Protestants.

Bible scholar Mary Healy, general editor for “The Great Adventure Catholic Bible” published by Ascension Press, said it is intended to make the Bible more accessible to the Catholic laity and thereby encourage their daily communion with God through scripture. Healy asserted that while many Catholics have not grown up studying scripture and were instead led to believe that doing so was a Protestant practice, such thinking is not in line with the teachings of early church fathers."

https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/15/new-bible-catholics-scriptural-knowlege/

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:47 pm 
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I've not yet had my hands on a copy, but, what I have seen looks good.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:05 pm 
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I'm interested myself....but its $60! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:31 pm 
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I have heard good things about it, but I disagree with the premise of the ad that Protestants have a really deep knowledge of the Bible. In general, this just isn't true. It has been years since I read it, but Christianity Today magazine is constantly running stories lamenting the Biblical illiteracy of the average evangelical. They do polls of Biblical knowledge, and the polls show among self-described evangelicals, 60-70% of them don't recognize direct quotations from the Sermon on the Mount, can't name any of the 10 Commandments, don't recognize the names of Biblical books, can't answer basic questions like 'who was the first king of Israel?' or 'who did God command Abraham to sacrifice?' And, they think the phrase 'God helps those who help themselves' is in the Bible.

When I was a Lutheran, I was often appalled by the ignorance of my fellow Lutherans. I remember meeting in 'youth group' while in high school, and whenever the youth pastor asked us to turn to a certain book in the Bible immediately the next question was 'is that in the Old Testament or the New Testament?' and I'm talking about really obvious stuff, like 'the gospel of Matthew'.

I've never seen any evidence to support the idea that, in general, Protestants have a deep knowledge of the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:15 am 
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APRIL 25, 2017. LifeWay Research: Americans Are Fond of the Bible, Don’t Actually Read It, HERE.

***************

Concerning the Bible referenced in the OP, "This Bible edition, released in August, features 70 key biblical events highlighted and placed in chronological order to help readers understand the narrative that runs through the books of scripture. It also features timelines, scholarly articles and color coding…"

My personal preference is that extensive commentary not be included in the Bible itself (Scofield! anyone), but - I suppose - it's better than not reading the Bible. But... then again... ???

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:56 am 
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Peetem wrote:
I'm interested myself....but its $60! :shock:


Didache Bible was the last big new shiny thing, it is $56 on Amazon

A good Catholic Bible, leather bound, with a print size someone over 40 can read, is going to run you around $60 bucks.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:38 am 
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I know that most converts here will know this. The reason that Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, are so good with their interpretation of Scripture is that the sermon is the main focus of their worship and it can sometimes run to 1/2 hour of teaching, complete with cross-referencing verses and some Greek.

It's not worship. It's a religious schooling session with grape juice and crackers at the end.


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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:52 am 
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I'm not aware of any surveys that show that evangelicals are all that more biblically literate than Catholics. I am aware that's a bit of a cultural meme, but I don't think there's any basis in reality for it. Quite the opposite in fact. Most survey's I've seen show that evangelicals and white Catholics tend to run close to the same in basic questions of biblical literacy--with evangelicals running maybe a point or two ahead--and I've never seen any reports that actually take the time to determine what is statistically significant and what isn't.

I also object to LotE's characterization of non-Catholic services "not worship" and merely "religious schooling session with grape juice and crackers at the end." The politest thing I can say is that such lack of charity is unbecoming. *shrug*

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:10 am 
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theJack wrote:
I also object to LotE's characterization of non-Catholic services "not worship" and merely "religious schooling session with grape juice and crackers at the end." The politest thing I can say is that such lack of charity is unbecoming. *shrug*


I have attended a non-Catholic (Anglican) service in person only once. It was "prayerful" and "reverent" iykwim.

Perhaps LotE is comparing non-Catholic services with the Mass in the Byzantine rite - which has more "ceremony". I'm not saying his characterization of non-Catholic services is accurate, but it at least helps you to see where he's coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:34 am 
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I see where he is coming from. I still object to the lack of charity. To suggest an equation with ceremony and worship, such that the former is a necessary condition for the latter, is highly problematic. Moreover, even the charge of lack of ceremony is problematic insofar as we can question what is meant by ceremony. It has long been argued around here, and rightfully so, that baptists (for example) are just as liturgical as anyone else regardless of their claim. All faith groups have their ceremonies. So what *some* non-Catholic churches lack is a highly formalized ceremony dictated by ancient tradition and designated authority. But, again, to suggest that unless one's ceremony is highly formalized and dictated by ancient tradition and designated authority, otherwise there is no worship, is uncharitable at best. Such worship services most definitely should not be written off as mere religious schooling sessions.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:36 am 
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Jack3, I don't think you're familiar with American Protestantism (head nod in the direction of theJack as I recognize that there is no such monolithic construction), which provides the background for LotE's statement. Some (I emphasize SOME) Protestant services bear little to no relationship to what you saw at the Anglican service.

In Catholic terms, I will note that the fullness of worship includes sacrifice, which is of course the center of both the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. Ecclesial groups without valid orders can't offer that particular sacrifice, which is I think the point LotE is trying to make, though they can offer the same sorts of sacrifice of praise etc. that is the congregation's offering for the Sacrifice of the Mass.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:45 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jack3, I don't think you're familiar with American Protestantism (head nod in the direction of theJack as I recognize that there is no such monolithic construction), which provides the background for LotE's statement. Some (I emphasize SOME) Protestant services bear little to no relationship to what you saw at the Anglican service.

In Catholic terms, I will note that the fullness of worship includes sacrifice, which is of course the center of both the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. Ecclesial groups without valid orders can't offer that particular sacrifice, which is I think the point LotE is trying to make, though they can offer the same sorts of sacrifice of praise etc. that is the congregation's offering for the Sacrifice of the Mass.



As an Anglican rep, locally, let me note that Anglicans know (and I know you know we know), among other things, of that judgement on our orders, in particular. Which all RCs should also know and affirm.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:47 am 
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Though I had in mind other groups even more than Anglicans--groups that don't think there is such a thing as valid orders because there's no sacrament of order in the first place.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:59 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Though I had in mind other groups even more than Anglicans--groups that don't think there is such a thing as valid orders because there's no sacrament if order in the first place.



D"accord. Which is why I added "in particular", re: the judgement on our orders, which necessarily holds that our ability to confect the sacrament is .. might one say, null and void.

We say we do what you do, in the sacramental action.

Another point I would make is that LoE doesn't offend me, in this.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In Catholic terms, I will note that the fullness of worship includes sacrifice, which is of course the center of both the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. Ecclesial groups without valid orders can't offer that particular sacrifice, which is I think the point LotE is trying to make, though they can offer the same sorts of sacrifice of praise etc. that is the congregation's offering for the Sacrifice of the Mass.

I actually don't think that's LotE's point. If it were, I wouldn't have said anything. Even I grant that in Catholic terms, non-Catholic faith communities don't have "worship" in the proper sense--such a claim is just the proper working out of certain theological commitments and is hardly offensive in any way whatsoever. But LotE specifically was talking about the centrality if the sermon as a half-hour of teaching, and in that context, non-Catholic services aren't worship--they're mere religious education (with a nod towards ceremony as being nothing but crackers and juice). So while I have no doubt that LotE would argue the Catholic point on what constitutes true worship with respect to the Sacrament (and thus the bishop), I don't think that at all is the point he's making in that particular post--such a point has nothing to do with a long (although I hardly consider thirty minutes "long") Bible study and ignoring all the rest of the service (corporate prayer, corporate singing, giving of gifts for the work of the Body, etc). That, to me, is just an inappropriate mischaracterization of his separated brethren's liturgical practices.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Hey Jack. I did say Fundamentalist and Evangelical. My experience of both of them compared to Apostolic worship is a circus. If it doesn't apply to you, don't get offended. I was not talking about liturgical Protestantism. I was talking about the kind of experience I had in non-liturgical Fundamentalist and Evangelical assemblies. If you haven't experienced it, you probably have no idea just how off-kilter some of their services can be.


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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:44 pm 
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I think it probably does apply to me, and it isn't a matter of being offended. But even if it didn't apply to me, do you really think there's someone out there who would read that that their service is a mere religious educational session with crackers and juice at the end, that such is "not worship," would respond< "Yup! You're right. That's totally me. I don't go to worship!!!" The entire line of argument is absurd. It's not about being offensive or who its applicable to (and therefore about who has a right to be offended). It's about the simple fact that we shouldn't--indeed, that no one should--misrepresent those with whom we disagree, whether they're offended or not. My contention is that *all* "Protestantism" is liturgical because human beings are liturgical. Take a typical Baptist order of service. You walk in with the piano playing a welcoming hymn; the pastor or a deacon issues a morning welcome and call to worship and prayer; there is an opening hymn or two followed by the meet and greet; there is a third hymn followed by the offertory prayer, offering, and offertory hymn; then there is the special music of the day; next is the reading of and prayer over the word; next is the sermon; at the end of the service is the call to response (aka the altar call) during which the musicians play, which then transition into the closing hymn; there is then the benediction.

Beyond this normal service, there are special services usually built around holidays with their own liturgies: mother's day, father's day, veterans and memorial days, Christmas, Easter, and so on. Then you have your communion services which are done at set intervals (in Southern Baptist churches, it's usually semi-annually).

Now, my point is that whether or not any of this is "true worship" from a specifically Catholic perspective--and I grant that it isn't for reasons already stated and am in no way offended by such a claim--it is simply inappropriate to say that such a service is non-liturgical, that it is a "circus," that it is merely a religious education session, and that it is "not worship." That's highly inflammatory within the context of this particular discussion. Again, if you wish to say that despite the best attempts of these communities of faith and despite their intentions, the acts they are engaging in for the purpose of worship fall short of genuine worship since they do not participate in the Sacraments nor have valid orders, that's perfectly appropriate. It's non-inflammatory and even educationally appropriate for a Cath101 board. But to write off such services due to the heavy emphasis that non-Catholics do tend to have on the sermon (i.e., the Preaching of the Word) is, bluntly, wrong. It's also wrong as alluded to by Obi because you can't even make generalizations regardless! The non-liturgical circus you're talking about isn't anything that would be recognized by my high conservative Presbyterian and Lutheran friends, for instance.

In short, the case for the distinctiveness of the Catholic Church is strong enough to make on its own merits without resorting to unnecessary and uncharitable mischaracterizations of the liturgical practices of those who fail to agree with you.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:10 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I'm not aware of any surveys that show that evangelicals are all that more biblically literate than Catholics.


That isn't what I said. What I said is that there is no evidence I am aware of that, on average, Protestants have a significantly better knowledge of the Bible than Catholics, or indeed, than the general population.

Let me give you an example, are you familiar with the Christian radio station, K Love? A few years ago, I was commuting to work with a group of people who listened to that radio station when we drove to and from work.

One day, the DJ got on and announced that in church yesterday (it must have been a Monday) she heard a story that she'd never heard before. It seems Jesus took 3 of his disciples up to a mountain and they saw him talking with Moses and Elijah. This is a weird story, she said, and she wondered why, in her 30 some years as a Christian, she had never heard it before. I was sitting there stunned listening to this DJ prattle on like this for several minutes before I said 'how is it possible that this woman has never heard of the Transfiguration?' The response from one of the other passengers? 'The what now?' Granted, in that case, the questioner had simply never heard the word 'transfiguration', she was familiar with the story in the gospel.

The problem isn't really a 'Protestant' or 'Catholic' one, it is cultural, people living in the west, in general, are biblically illiterate. I've never seen anything that shows that professed Christians (belonging to any church whatsoever) have a better knowledge of the Bible than the general population.

I'm not really one to think in terms of there being a lost kind of 'golden age' when everyone was a believer and everyone knew the Bible, but there is no doubt that this generation is more biblically illiterate than previous generations. For example, politicians used to quote or allude to the Bible frequently, confident that their audiences would recognize the reference. For example, I think don't anyone failed to recognize the Biblical allusion in Lincoln's famous 'house divided' speech.

Today, when a politician makes an allusion to a Biblical passage, the chattering classes talk about it is supposedly a 'dog whistle to the religious right', a 'dog whistle' meaning that it is supposedly a kind of 'secret message' that only certain people can understand. What was once 'common knowledge' is now a 'dog whistle'.

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
I'm not aware of any surveys that show that evangelicals are all that more biblically literate than Catholics.


What I said is that there is no evidence I am aware of that, on average, Protestants have a significantly better knowledge of the Bible than Catholics, or indeed, than the general population.

I don't see how these statements are significantly different. I'm speaking specifically of "evangelicals," but that's because the OP speaks of evangelicals. Outside of that, I think we're saying the same thing.

On the other hand, I appreciate your objection, because now it doesn't have to appear that I agree with you. :cloud9: :cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: New Bible Published to Help Catholics Catch....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:37 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I think it probably does apply to me, and it isn't a matter of being offended. But even if it didn't apply to me, do you really think there's someone out there who would read that that their service is a mere religious educational session with crackers and juice at the end, that such is "not worship," would respond< "Yup! You're right. That's totally me. I don't go to worship!!!" The entire line of argument is absurd. It's not about being offensive or who its applicable to (and therefore about who has a right to be offended). It's about the simple fact that we shouldn't--indeed, that no one should--misrepresent those with whom we disagree, whether they're offended or not. My contention is that *all* "Protestantism" is liturgical because human beings are liturgical. Take a typical Baptist order of service. You walk in with the piano playing a welcoming hymn; the pastor or a deacon issues a morning welcome and call to worship and prayer; there is an opening hymn or two followed by the meet and greet; there is a third hymn followed by the offertory prayer, offering, and offertory hymn; then there is the special music of the day; next is the reading of and prayer over the word; next is the sermon; at the end of the service is the call to response (aka the altar call) during which the musicians play, which then transition into the closing hymn; there is then the benediction.


I would repeat - I am not speaking in a void. I have been to these kinds of services for 25 years in various kinds, types, and denominations of assemblies in many states. I said what I said because I seen what I seen. I would honestly imagine that your assembly (C&MA, right) is far, far from some of the abuses I have seen which have tried to pass themselves off as "worship."

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Now, my point is that whether or not any of this is "true worship"from a specifically Catholic perspective--and I grant that it isn't for reasons already stated and am in no way offended by such a claim--it is simply inappropriate to say that such a service is non-liturgical, that it is a "circus," that it is merely a religious education session, and that it is "not worship." That's highly inflammatory within the context of this particular discussion. Again, if you wish to say that despite the best attempts of these communities of faith and despite their intentions, the acts they are engaging in for the purpose of worship fall short of genuine worship since they do not participate in the Sacraments nor have valid orders, that's perfectly appropriate. It's non-inflammatory and even educationally appropriate for a Cath101 board. But to write off such services due to the heavy emphasis that non-Catholics do tend to have on the sermon (i.e., the Preaching of the Word) is, bluntly, wrong. It's also wrong as alluded to by Obi because you can't even make generalizations regardless! The non-liturgical circus you're talking about isn't anything that would be recognized by my high conservative Presbyterian and Lutheran friends, for instance.


Well, that exactly IS my point. Let's see what the Bible has to say about it:

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The word "admonished" constitutes a strong - shall I even say 'in your face' - warning not to tamper with the pattern that God was setting forth in the desert for proper worship. There is a very strong reason for that:

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Figures of the true. Patterns of the heavenly realities. This is why God strongly warned Moses not to tamper with / add on anything that he, Aaron, or anyone else in the congregation felt that should be added to make the OT Liturgy more "people friendly." The same is true with the worship of the NT. We are supposed to be showing people a picture of heaven. Jimmy Swaggart banging on a piano is not doing that. He is Honky-Tonking. Nor are any of the lesser Fundamentalist and Evangelical assemblies who don't quite go that far.

Christ and our union with Him (i.e.the Eucharist) forever is the beauty, the joy, the desire of every Christian. That is why so many convert to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. When they see this union in the Liturgy, and realize the truth of it in the Eucharist, they develop a longing for that union which can only be satisfied by becoming united to apostolic worship such as was established in the Early Church. Entertainment, intellectual stimulation (aka "learning"), and a bare memorial meal simply cannot do that for the soul hungry for Christ, and my obnoxious anger is not against the many people in the pews with honest hearts who are feeding on the crumbs from the Gospel table. It is most directly to those pastors and theological teachers and leaders who, because of their study and learning, should know better. They have hungry sheep and they are not feeding them.

I came to the Church starving spiritually. Many are still out there feeling the hunger.

Obnoxious? Yes. I'm sorry. I have a tendency to be too blunt, rude, and somewhat mean-spirited about things I don't like and don't care for, and being deceived by leaders I trusted is high on that list.

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In short, the case for the distinctiveness of the Catholic Church is strong enough to make on its own merits without resorting to unnecessary and uncharitable mischaracterizations of the liturgical practices of those who fail to agree with you.


Nope. Now I'm going to piss off all the Catholics here. It ain't. Not since they trashed their Liturgy with the Novus Ordo. The first time I went to a NO Liturgy I felt like I was still in Protestantism. There wasn't much at all which was distinctive from what I was leaving. It wasn't until I attended the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that my heart cried out and said "THIS IS IT!!!"

The parish my wife attends (Roman Catholic) looks like a gymnasium rather than a church. Take away a couple of statues out front and you wouldn't know the difference. Fr. B*****t is in the middle of a $10 million dollar program to build a new parish which, from the architects renderings, will be beautiful and distinctly Catholic. I can only hope that when he does, the schlocky music, the altar girls, the "table in the round" altar, and the "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" will also go. The Roman Church has a long way to go to recover what she has lost, which is the distinctiveness of the Catholic faith.


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