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 Post subject: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:48 pm 
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I was given a prayer on a card with a picture of St Therese of Avila. The prayer says
"LET NOTHING TROUBLE YOU
LET NOTHING DISTURB YOU
ALL THINGS PASS AWAY
God NEVER CHANGES"

If God never changes, how is it possible to offend God? I think the bible says God at times becomes angry. Does that mean it's wrong to say God never changes?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:08 pm 
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God never changes, but our relationship to Him does.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God never changes, but our relationship to Him does.


I'm not sure you answered the question.

Does God have emotions like human beings, or is He immutable?

I believe I read, in regards to your comment, that He does not get angry like human beings, but when our relationship to Him changes, it feels like anger to us. Not that He changed, but we changed in relationship to Him.

Comments?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God never changes, but our relationship to Him does.


I'm not sure you answered the question.

Does God have emotions like human beings, or is He immutable?

I believe I read, in regards to your comment, that He does not get angry like human beings, but when our relationship to Him changes, it feels like anger to us. Not that He changed, but we changed in relationship to Him.

Comments?


It is impossible for human beings to talk about God because he is so utterly above and beyond us that we cannot even really conceive of what he is. Therefore, all language about God is analogical only, not literal. God has no 'anger' or 'emotion' at all when we ascribe emotion to God, we are doing so in an analogical sense only. However, for us to be able to speak about God at all we are forced to anthropomorphize, there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we are aware that this is what we are doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God never changes, but our relationship to Him does.


I'm not sure you answered the question.

Does God have emotions like human beings, or is He immutable?

I believe I read, in regards to your comment, that He does not get angry like human beings, but when our relationship to Him changes, it feels like anger to us. Not that He changed, but we changed in relationship to Him.

Comments?

I agree with what you read.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God never changes, but our relationship to Him does.


I'm not sure you answered the question.

Does God have emotions like human beings, or is He immutable?

I believe I read, in regards to your comment, that He does not get angry like human beings, but when our relationship to Him changes, it feels like anger to us. Not that He changed, but we changed in relationship to Him.

Comments?


It is impossible for human beings to talk about God because he is so utterly above and beyond us that we cannot even really conceive of what he is. Therefore, all language about God is analogical only, not literal. God has no 'anger' or 'emotion' at all when we ascribe emotion to God, we are doing so in an analogical sense only. However, for us to be able to speak about God at all we are forced to anthropomorphize, there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we are aware that this is what we are doing.


I think that is the most important reality of what I have yet to learn of God - that we can only anthropomorphize because He is so utterly above and beyond us. Great answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:16 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God never changes, but our relationship to Him does.


I'm not sure you answered the question.

Does God have emotions like human beings, or is He immutable?

I believe I read, in regards to your comment, that He does not get angry like human beings, but when our relationship to Him changes, it feels like anger to us. Not that He changed, but we changed in relationship to Him.

Comments?

I agree with what you read.


Nice dodge father. No direct agreement with Doom was made. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:43 am 
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There is a phrase from Julian of Norwich ' s revelations "God is never wrath" it's technically true I guess?

BXVI cited her a few times and so does the CCC but I am not sure if her shewings are safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:52 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
Doom wrote:
It is impossible for human beings to talk about God because he is so utterly above and beyond us that we cannot even really conceive of what he is. Therefore, all language about God is analogical only, not literal. God has no 'anger' or 'emotion' at all when we ascribe emotion to God, we are doing so in an analogical sense only. However, for us to be able to speak about God at all we are forced to anthropomorphize, there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we are aware that this is what we are doing.


I think that is the most important reality of what I have yet to learn of God - that we can only anthropomorphize because He is so utterly above and beyond us. Great answer.

The absolute otherness of God is something that can be affirmed on faith and out of piety, and I don't say that with the least bit of dismissiveness. There are a great many people who do, in fact, affirm important truths about God on just those grounds and are right in doing so. The "however" you feel coming is that this notion of absolute otherness and the following conclusion that we can only speak about Him analogically (and so Aquinas says, "Univocal predication is impossible between God and creatures") is also a matter of reason. That is, it necessarily follows from what we know is true about the world and God. Whether you start from simple observation, as in the First Way, or whether you start with a fundamental theological doctrine like God as Creator (Gen 1:1), you have to end up with a God that is absolutely necessary, utterly simple, and exists completely a se. But when you start working the the implications of that, you start seeing all sorts of things, and the necessity of the analogy of language when referring to Him is one of them. And as is commonly done 'round these parts, I point you to Feser if you haven't read him yet to get you going. Just my $.02!

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:50 am 
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theJack wrote:

The absolute otherness of God is something that can be affirmed on faith and out of piety, and I don't say that with the least bit of dismissiveness. There are a great many people who do, in fact, affirm important truths about God on just those grounds and are right in doing so. The "however" you feel coming is that this notion of absolute otherness and the following conclusion that we can only speak about Him analogically (and so Aquinas says, "Univocal predication is impossible between God and creatures") is also a matter of reason. That is, it necessarily follows from what we know is true about the world and God. Whether you start from simple observation, as in the First Way, or whether you start with a fundamental theological doctrine like God as Creator (Gen 1:1), you have to end up with a God that is absolutely necessary, utterly simple, and exists completely a se. But when you start working the the implications of that, you start seeing all sorts of things, and the necessity of the analogy of language when referring to Him is one of them. And as is commonly done 'round these parts, I point you to Feser if you haven't read him yet to get you going. Just my $.02!


All of this is correct, however, I tried to avoid specific references to St. Thomas under the assumption, perhaps unjustified, that Ed, being inclined towards eastern theology, might be hostile to Thomism, as many easterners are.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:03 pm 
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In this case, it does matter, at least if my understanding is correct, because my understanding is that Eastern thought tends to be more apophatic than Western.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
apophatic


Gesundheit!

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Anyway, would you like to explain what you meant by that further?

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Apophatic theology is that which proceeds by negative statements only:

God does not have limits.
God does not have parts.
etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:36 am 
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If we are made in the image of God, and we are made with emotions, then does God not have emotions? If not, then in what sense are we made in the image of God?

Is the love a person can have for God and for their neighbour not an emotion? If not, what is it? Is that love of the same type, if not to the same extent, as the love God has for us?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:35 am 
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Quote:
Q. What is man? A. Man is a creature composed of a body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God.

Q. Is this likeness in the body or in the soul? A. This likeness is chiefly in the soul.

Q. How is the soul like to God? A. The soul is like God because it is a spirit that will never die, and has understanding and free will.


That's from the Baltimore Catechism, a book used in the US for teaching catechism classes for decades. I'd have given you something from the regular Catechism of the Catholic Church, but it doesn't really address your question anywhere.

"Love" in a created being (humans, angels) occurs when the being perceives something it takes to be good (which can be done in error) and wants to have it in some way. Since God already has all things, He doesn't love in this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:10 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
If we are made in the image of God, and we are made with emotions, then does God not have emotions? If not, then in what sense are we made in the image of God?


We are made with a body, and God doesn't have a body (or He didn't when He created us anyway), so your logic doesn't follow. Another issue is that all animals have emotions, but we are the only animals made in the image of God.

The image and likeness of God consists in our intellect and will - our rational powers in which we are distinct from all other bodily creatures.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:29 am 
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God as God still doesn't have a body.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God as God still doesn't have a body.


:iws

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 Post subject: Re: Is God unchanging?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:40 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God as God still doesn't have a body.


:iws

Why do you keep calling Father stupid

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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