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 Post subject: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Today I met a very kind Serbian Orthodox priest, and after talking for a while I mentioned that I have an interested in Eastern liturgies (I've been attending a Ukrainian Catholic parish) and he invited me to his parish.

(1) Are there any norms about visiting Eastern Orthodox churches for services? Anything in particular I need to avoid or any way it could be construed as scandal?

(2) What is the exact relationship of the EO and Rome since they are no longer excommunicated? Are they (materially) schismatic or not?

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Last edited by ForeverFaithful on Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:34 pm 
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(1) You can attend the liturgy without really any scandal. Just make sure you attend Mass at a Catholic Church that Sunday also. [Maybe do that first. I think Western liturgies tend to be shorter than Eastern liturgies.]

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:37 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
(1) You can attend the liturgy without really any scandal. Just make sure you attend Mass at a Catholic Church that Sunday also. [Maybe do that first. I think Western liturgies tend to be shorter than Eastern liturgies.]


TLM is 2 pm here, I usually go to the Byzantine liturgy in the morning this would just replace this.

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Just to add to that: Attendance at the Divine Liturgy of a Church in communion with the Holy See satisfies the Sunday/Holyday obligation, but (as far as I can tell) attendance at an Orthodox Church does not.

As far as (2) goes: Can. 751 ... Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Orthodox Churches are therefore still legally schismatic.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just to add to that: Attendance at the Divine Liturgy of a Church in communion with the Holy See satisfies the Sunday/Holyday obligation, but (as far as I can tell) attendance at an Orthodox Church does not.

As far as (2) goes: Can. 751 ... Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Orthodox Churches are therefore still legally schismatic.


What effect did the excommunication being lifted make?

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just to add to that: Attendance at the Divine Liturgy of a Church in communion with the Holy See satisfies the Sunday/Holyday obligation, but (as far as I can tell) attendance at an Orthodox Church does not.

As far as (2) goes: Can. 751 ... Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Orthodox Churches are therefore still legally schismatic.


:iws

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:40 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just to add to that: Attendance at the Divine Liturgy of a Church in communion with the Holy See satisfies the Sunday/Holyday obligation, but (as far as I can tell) attendance at an Orthodox Church does not.

As far as (2) goes: Can. 751 ... Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Orthodox Churches are therefore still legally schismatic.


What effect did the excommunication being lifted make?

A mostly symbolic gesture.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just to add to that: Attendance at the Divine Liturgy of a Church in communion with the Holy See satisfies the Sunday/Holyday obligation, but (as far as I can tell) attendance at an Orthodox Church does not.

As far as (2) goes: Can. 751 ... Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

The Orthodox Churches are therefore still legally schismatic.


What effect did the excommunication being lifted make?

A mostly symbolic gesture.


It's especially weird because even though our law says Orthodox can receive at our liturgies, they forbid themselves

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:51 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:


What effect did the excommunication being lifted make?


I don't think you understand what the mutual excommunications of 1054 entailed. The only thing that happened was that the guy who was Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054 was excommunicated by the guy who was Pope in 1054. The excommunications never applied to anyone except those specific individuals, lifting them was never anything but a symbolic gesture. Excommunications refer to specific individuals and cannot be 'inherited' by one descendant.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Not even that, because the pope whose legate did the excommunicating in Constantinople was dead by the time the excommunication was issued, meaning that the legate had no authority to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Not even that, because the pope whose legate did the excommunicating in Constantinople was dead by the time the excommunication was issued, meaning that the legate had no authority to do it.


True,

Many people seem to have the notion that the Pope excommunicated everyone in communion with the patriarch of Constantinople and vice versa, so that all Orthodox were excommunicated by Rome, and all Catholic were excommunicated by Constantinople, and that somehow, these excommunications continued for generation after generation. Not only would the Pope excommunicating all the Orthodox not really make sense, but even if it had been, it would apply only to that one generation, not to their children, grandchildren etc. You can't excommunicate future generations still unborn.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Other Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:16 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
It's especially weird because even though our law says Orthodox can receive at our liturgies, they forbid themselves

Similarly, even though the law says that one can receive from the Orthodox under certain circumstances, they probably won't allow you to.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:17 am 
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The real schism dates from 1453 anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:43 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The real schism dates from 1453 anyway.


'Splain, please.


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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
The real schism dates from 1453 anyway.


'Splain, please.


After the Council of Florence, when Constantinople fell to the Turk, and they made sure that the Patriarch of Constantinople would be anti-union.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Yesterday Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of Russian Orthodox Church was received by Cardinal António Marto at Fátima, Portugal.

https://www.fatima.pt/pt/news/o-metropo ... 2018-09-18

Due to scarcity of Catholic Church in Russia, you may go to a Russian Orthodox Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:51 am 
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There are differences between the Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church.

This morning I received several messages from a woman at St. Petersburg, wishing us Our Lady’s Birthday. The Russian Orthodox Church celebrates The Nativity of Our Lady on September 21 while we celebrate the Feast of St. Mark.

Why the difference? Because the Russian Orthodox Church is still on the Julian Calendar. Today is September 8, old-style.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The real schism dates from 1453 anyway.


Actually, I've read a really reliable source that insists that there was no real schism, at least not a permanent one, until as late as the 18th century.

Far too much is made of the year 1054, the events of 1054 were no significant, the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople had sparred with each other 1,000 times before, and would do so 1,000 more times in the future, yet no one at the time regarded the mutual excommunications as being at all meaningful, and in fact, the mutual excommunications were so completely meaningless that they were actually forgotten for more than 800 years, until being dug up and blown out of proportions by historians in the 19th century. How important could an event have possibly been if no one knew about it for nearly a millennium?

The schism between east and west is not something that could conceivably have happened at a single instant anyway, the real story is far less dramatic, if no less tragic: as the east was swallowed up by Islam, east and west fell out of communication and gradually drifted apart over a period of several centuries as customs and traditions began to evolve differently in the east and the west, and gradually diverge. As late as 1453, the Patriarch of Constantinople begged the Pope for military assistance battling the Ottoman Turks, a move which seems rather odd if, supposedly, east and west had been out of communion with each other for 400 years at that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Norms Concerning Eastern Orthodox
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Why? The West was quite aware that what was left of the Byzantine Empire was all that was keeping the Turks out of Europe, and the East was quite aware that the West was quite aware. On top of that, Constantine XI was at least nominally in communion with the Holy See, as was Gregory III, the Orthodox patriarch in exile.

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