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 Post subject: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:13 pm 
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St. Benedict lists as an instrument of good works "To be in dread of hell" in his rule.

St. Philip Neri likewise said ". He who does not go down into hell while he is alive, runs a great risk of going there after he is dead."

What did they mean by this?

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:45 pm 
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St. Matthew's Gospel, 10:28.

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:30 pm 
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A learned author says, that the mercy of God sends more souls to hell than his justice; for sinners are induced, by a rash confidence in the divine mercy, to continue in sin, and thus are lost. God is merciful. Who denies it? But great as is his mercy, how many does he send to hell every day? God is merciful: but he is also just; and therefore he is obliged to punish those who offend him. He shows mercy; but to whom? To them who fear him. He hath strengthened His mercy toward them that fear Him. As a father hath compassion on his children, so hath the Lord compassion on them that fear Him (Ps 102:11, 13).
-Saint Alphonsus de Liguori.

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
A learned author says, that the mercy of God sends more souls to hell than his justice; for sinners are induced, by a rash confidence in the divine mercy, to continue in sin, and thus are lost. God is merciful. Who denies it? But great as is his mercy, how many does he send to hell every day? God is merciful: but he is also just; and therefore he is obliged to punish those who offend him. He shows mercy; but to whom? To them who fear him. He hath strengthened His mercy toward them that fear Him. As a father hath compassion on his children, so hath the Lord compassion on them that fear Him (Ps 102:11, 13).
-Saint Alphonsus de Liguori.


Yes but the term dread seems a lot more unsettling than the filial fear St Alphonse is speaking of

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:59 pm 
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"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Many people never think about death and even if they do they are sure that they will go to Heaven. Hence they don't have "motivation" to lead a virtuous life, since it doesn't matter anyway.

Hell should indeed be dreaded because it is separation from God. Fear of hell impels us to live in such a way that we won't end up there, ie to do good and reject evil.

In Syro Malabar funerals, the following is sung:
Death will come one day,
O man! remember this,
your deeds will accompany you
Do good deeds
abandoning sloth
(translation mine)

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:18 am 
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The Latin is "Gehennam expavescere." Cardinal Gasquet translates this as "To be afraid of hell."

As PED pointed out (in other words) in a different thread, our language is Latin. Be in dread of English translations.

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:54 am 
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:00 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
The Latin is "Gehennam expavescere." Cardinal Gasquet translates this as "To be afraid of hell."

As PED pointed out (in other words) in a different thread, our language is Latin. Be in dread of English translations.


You know I knew it was something I should have consulted but I didn't make the effort to do it;

Mea culpa.

I'll take out my latin dictionary later

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:25 am 
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gherkin wrote:
The Latin is "Gehennam expavescere." Cardinal Gasquet translates this as "To be afraid of hell."

As PED pointed out (in other words) in a different thread, our language is Latin. Be in dread of English translations.


So underlying this particular thread is the palpalable nature of a fear of hell. The word "expavescere" seems to be pretty intensive even in Latin. Of course Hell is a pretty dreaful place to be, but how can one both have confidence in God's salvific will towards you, and at the same time live in a dread of hell? Clearly when you live in a life of presumption or habitual mortal sin, servile fear may be the first step towards grace, but what is the fear that the Christian lives by after repentance?

My assumption is because of the strength that the word "expavescere" carries that such a fear is actually felt, but if so it would seem unsettling and incompatible with peace (John 14:27) and joy (Phil 4:4) which are essential parts of the Christian life.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:28 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
My assumption is because of the strength that the word "expavescere" carries that such a fear is actually felt, but if so it would seem unsettling and incompatible with peace (John 14:27) and joy (Phil 4:4) which are essential parts of the Christian life.

Do you really think that Saint Benedict is teaching his monks something contrary to the Gospel? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:43 am 
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gherkin wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
My assumption is because of the strength that the word "expavescere" carries that such a fear is actually felt, but if so it would seem unsettling and incompatible with peace (John 14:27) and joy (Phil 4:4) which are essential parts of the Christian life.

Do you really think that Saint Benedict is teaching his monks something contrary to the Gospel? :scratch:


If Saint Benedict is saying we should be in dread of hell, then there's a better change I misunderstand what is meant by peace in John 14:27 then that he is teaching something contrary to the Gospel.

The prima facie meanings of his statement and John 14:27 are in apparent contradiction, but obviously not actual contradiction

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:06 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
If Saint Benedict is saying we should be in dread of hell, then there's a better change I misunderstand what is meant by peace in John 14:27 then that he is teaching something contrary to the Gospel.

The prima facie meanings of his statement and John 14:27 are in apparent contradiction, but obviously not actual contradiction

Right, more likely both that you misunderstand "peace" and that you misunderstand "fear."

Here's another crucial Catholic principle: don't take things in isolation. The Rule's chapter on Humility, for example, closes with this (the translation is from the OSB website, and it quite terrible, IMHO, but it's the one I got first in Google).

Quote:
Having climbed all these steps of humility, therefore, the monk will presently come to that perfect love of God which casts out fear. And all those precepts
which formerly he had not observed without fear, he will now begin to keep by reason of that love, without any effort, as though naturally and by habit. No longer will his motive be the fear of hell, but rather the love of Christ, good habit and delight in the virtues which the Lord will deign to show forth by the Holy Spirit in His servant now cleansed from vice and sin.


(The term for fear here is timere, but unlike you I don't see a very deep significance to the word choice.) Notice that the whole idea is one of spiritual progress--genuine sanctification. Is the Rule--including the Instruments of Good Works, from which you pulled the fear of hell line--intended primarily for perfect disciples? Explicitly not. Here is the closing line:

Quote:
Whoever you are, therefore, who are hastening to the heavenly homeland, fulfill with the help of Christ this minimum Rule which we have written for beginners; and then at length under God's protection you will attain to the loftier heights of doctrine and virtue which we have mentioned above.


So the Instruments of Good Works are designed for those who need them, beginners, who will then (by grace) go on to loftier heights, such as those discussed in the chapter on Humility above. (That's not to say they'll turn their backs on the Instruments et al, just that the motives and such will be different.)

Obviously the spiritual life is more complicated than this, and I'm not competent to teach about it anyway, but the point here is simple: don't cut bits out and do your best to become confused or scandalized by them. Indeed, I'd suggest that you're obviously reading a lot of things you aren't well advised to be reading. If your eye offends you, cast it out. Go read Abbot Vonier and Dom Van Zeller and Fr. Garrigou Lagrange for awhile. I mean, really read them.

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:32 am 
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Of course you don't take them in isolation. There'd be no point is bring up the apparent contradiction and calling it that unless the idea was to not take it in isolation.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:33 am 
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St. Neri's quote however, is from his maxims and is de facto in isolation.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:40 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Of course you don't take them in isolation. There'd be no point is bring up the apparent contradiction and calling it that unless the idea was to not take it in isolation.

You're taking that one line from St. Benedict in isolation. You haven't taken any trouble to grasp what he's teaching in the Rule. You've allowed yourself to be worried and bothered by that one line, which apparently strikes a chord with you, and you've ignored the whole teaching of St. Benedict. If you took the trouble to read more carefully, you wouldn't find yourself constantly rushing into the positing of apparent contradictions.

Don't take the charge of taking that line in isolation in isolation, either. The rest of my post is important, too. Stop reading things that you then immediately put to the enemy's work of undermining your peace. Read more basic things. Get your feet under you. I named three sources. Good stuff. None of them saints, yet, but for all that much easier for a modern person to understand and digest than St. Alphonsus.

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:47 am 
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Indeed, I'd suggest that you're obviously reading a lot of things you aren't well advised to be reading.

I agree with gherkin.

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:51 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Indeed, I'd suggest that you're obviously reading a lot of things you aren't well advised to be reading.

I agree with gherkin.


Is that consistent with Canon Law?

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:51 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Indeed, I'd suggest that you're obviously reading a lot of things you aren't well advised to be reading.

I agree with gherkin.


Is that consistent with Canon Law?

Well, he did take it in isolation. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:52 am 
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 Post subject: Re: "To be in dread of hell"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:15 am 
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gherkin wrote:
The Latin is "Gehennam expavescere." Cardinal Gasquet translates this as "To be afraid of hell."


This statement is true.

It is easy to agree with gherkins in isolation :fyi:

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


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