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 Post subject: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Why did St. John Paul II refer to Seraphim of Sarov as a saint?

Why does Fr. Philippe refer to Seraphim of Sarov as a saint?


While I can't know the state of his soul at death, the man was not a visible member of the Catholic Church. So is it even licit to venerate him?

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:36 pm 
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I don't know the context, but I guess I'd suppose it was just good manners to use the term "saint."

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:41 pm 
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He is highly venerated by Russian Orthodox Church and by Pope John Paul II.

See the answer from EWTN:

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessa ... ber=421124

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:46 pm 
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lbt wrote:
He is highly venerated by Russian Orthodox Church and by Pope John Paul II.

See the answer from EWTN:

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessa ... ber=421124


Why would JP II venerate a non-Catholic?

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:30 pm 
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In his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, the pope just mentioned “Saint Seraphim of Sarov and many others” as an example in the history of mystical prayer in the East and West.

See the end of the chapter Praying: How and Why.

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:05 pm 
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lbt wrote:
In his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, the pope just mentioned “Saint Seraphim of Sarov and many others” as an example in the history of mystical prayer in the East and West.

See the end of the chapter Praying: How and Why.


Even worse your link says Palamas is celebrated in Eastern Catholicism as a saint.

This is incomprehensible.

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:46 pm 
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So I ask you a different question.

Why does the Russian Orthodox Church include St. Patrick of Ireland in their calendar?

http://orthochristian.com/101734.html

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:02 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
lbt wrote:
In his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, the pope just mentioned “Saint Seraphim of Sarov and many others” as an example in the history of mystical prayer in the East and West.

See the end of the chapter Praying: How and Why.


Even worse your link says Palamas is celebrated in Eastern Catholicism as a saint.

This is incomprehensible.

One of the challenges facing reunion is what will happen with people honored as saints in the east but not in the west.

St. Patrick, BTW, well predates the major East/West tensions, so he's not a good comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:26 pm 
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Saints be praised!

Now reading the Evening Prayer in Russian:

http://liturgia-horarum.ru

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:24 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Why did St. John Paul II refer to Seraphim of Sarov as a saint?

Why does Fr. Philippe refer to Seraphim of Sarov as a saint?

While I can't know the state of his soul at death, the man was not a visible member of the Catholic Church. So is it even licit to venerate him?


Because he is a saint:

Then Father Seraphim took me very firmly by the shoulders and said: "We are both in the Spirit of God now, my son. Why don't you look at me?"

I replied: "I cannot look, Father, because your eyes are flashing like lightning. Your face has become brighter than the sun, and my eyes ache with pain."

Father Seraphim said: "Don't be alarmed, your Godliness! Now you yourself have become as bright as I am. You are now in the fullness of the Spirit of God yourself; otherwise you would not be able to see me as I am."

Then, bending his head towards me, he whispered softly in my ear: "Thank the Lord God for His unutterable mercy to us! You saw that I did not even cross myself; and only in my heart I prayed mentally to the Lord God and said within myself: 'Lord, grant him to see clearly with his bodily eyes that descent of Thy Spirit which Thou grantest to Thy servants when Thou art pleased to appear in the light of Thy magnificent glory.' And you see, my son, the Lord instantly fulfilled the humble prayer of poor Seraphim. How then shall we not thank Him for this unspeakable gift to us both? Even to the greatest hermits, my son, the Lord God does not always show His mercy in this way. This grace of God, like a loving mother, has been pleased to comfort your contrite heart at the intercession of the Mother of God herself. But why, my son, do you not look me in the eyes? Just look, and don't be afraid! The Lord is with us!"

After these words I glanced at his face and there came over me an even greater reverent awe. Imagine in the center of the sun, in the dazzling light of its midday rays, the face of a man talking to you. You see the movement of his lips and the changing expression of his eyes, you hear his voice, you feel someone holding your shoulders; yet you do not see his hands, you do not even see yourself or his figure, but only a blinding light spreading far around for several yards and illumining with its glaring sheen both the snow-blanket which covered the forest glade and the snow-flakes which besprinkled me and the great Elder. You can imagine the state I was in!

"How do you feel now?" Father Seraphim asked me.

"Extraordinarily well," I said.

"But in what way? How exactly do you feel well?"

I answered: "I feel such calmness and peace in my soul that no words can express it."

"This, your Godliness," said Father Seraphim, "is that peace of which the Lord said to His disciples: My peace I give unto you; not as the world gives, give I unto you (Jn. 14:21). If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you (Jn. 15:19). But be of good cheer; I have overcome the world (Jn. 16:33). And to those people whom this world hates but who are chosen by the Lord, the Lord gives that peace which you now feel within you, the peace which, in the words of the Apostle, passes all understanding (Phil. 4:7). The Apostle describes it in this way, because it is impossible to express in words the spiritual well-being which it produces in those into whose hearts the Lord God has infused it. Christ the Saviour calls it a peace which comes from His own generosity and is not of this world, for no temporary earthly prosperity can give it to the human heart; it is granted from on high by the Lord God Himself, and that is why it is called the peace of God. What else do you feel?" Father Seraphim asked me.

"An extraordinary sweetness," I replied.

And he continued: "This is that sweetness of which it is said in Holy Scripture: They will be inebriated with the fatness of Thy house; and Thou shalt make them drink of the torrent of Thy delight (Ps. 35:8) [16]. And now this sweetness is flooding our hearts and coursing through our veins with unutterable delight. From this sweetness our hearts melt as it were, and both of us are filled with such happiness as tongue cannot tell. What else do you feel?"

"An extraordinary joy in all my heart.


St. Seraphim of Sarov's Conversation With Nicholas Motovilov


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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:35 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
lbt wrote:
In his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, the pope just mentioned “Saint Seraphim of Sarov and many others” as an example in the history of mystical prayer in the East and West.

See the end of the chapter Praying: How and Why.


Even worse your link says Palamas is celebrated in Eastern Catholicism as a saint.

This is incomprehensible.


Perhaps you need a refresher course on what the 23 rites of the East who are "in communion" with Rome actually are.

We
Are
Orthodox

Our theology, praxis, and Liturgy are Orthodox. When the Union of Brest was written and agreed upon, the foundation of the 35 canons of the Union was a declaration that we would remain Orthodox, not become some sort of Roman Catholic with a strange Liturgy.

Our Metropolitan, His Holiness Sviatoslav Shevchuk, recently declared "The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is an Orthodox Church." He declared that our theology, our praxis, and our Liturgy is Orthodox. The same is said for the Melkite Church, the Maronite Church, and the many others who are in the East but in communion with Rome.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we revere St. Gregory Palamas as a saint, as we also do St. Seraphim of Sarov.

Recently, the Holy Father of Rome said that "In Orthodoxy, there is nothing lacking." Sounds like he is pushing for that reunion which so desperately needs to take place.


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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:

Perhaps you need a refresher course on what the 23 rites of the East who are "in communion" with Rome actually are.

We
Are
Orthodox

Our theology, praxis, and Liturgy are Orthodox. When the Union of Brest was written and agreed upon, the foundation of the 35 canons of the Union was a declaration that we would remain Orthodox, not become some sort of Roman Catholic with a strange Liturgy.


So in an Eastern Catholic Church can one be a Trigamist? Is a condition for union with Rome not the rejection of the Orthodox pracitce of calling adultery a "pentiential" marriage. I do not care how rare it is, it is something that is sanctioned by the rite and liturgy of the EO that no Catholic can accept.

Quote:

Our Metropolitan, His Holiness Sviatoslav Shevchuk, recently declared "The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is an Orthodox Church." He declared that our theology, our praxis, and our Liturgy is Orthodox. The same is said for the Melkite Church, the Maronite Church, and the many others who are in the East but in communion with Rome.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, we revere St. Gregory Palamas as a saint, as we also do St. Seraphim of Sarov.

Do you or do you not believe in Divine Simplicity?

Quote:
Recently, the Holy Father of Rome said that "In Orthodoxy, there is nothing lacking." Sounds like he is pushing for that reunion which so desperately needs to take place.


There is plenty lacking, I'm going to need the context of that quote. Four things immediately come to mind:

Firstly a belief in the indissolubility of marriage. Secondly, the dogma of the Double Procession of the Holy Spirit. Thirdly, the rejection of the dogmatic definitions of the office of the Pope at Vatican I. Fourthly, the at least apparent rejection of the dogma of Divine Simplicity (seriously do the Orthodox believe God's existence is derived from His parts?).

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Perhaps you need a refresher course on what the 23 rites of the East who are "in communion" with Rome actually are.

We
Are
Orthodox

Our theology, praxis, and Liturgy are Orthodox. When the Union of Brest was written and agreed upon, the foundation of the 35 canons of the Union was a declaration that we would remain Orthodox, not become some sort of Roman Catholic with a strange Liturgy.


So in an Eastern Catholic Church can one be a Trigamist? Is a condition for union with Rome not the rejection of the Orthodox pracitce of calling adultery a "pentiential" marriage. I do not care how rare it is, it is something that is sanctioned by the rite and liturgy of the EO that no Catholic can accept

To me it is certainly highly problematic inasmuch as Christ was very clear in what He said regarding those who divorce and remarry. This is, as I understand it however, not on the level of a "dogmatic teaching of the Church" but rather is tolerated under certain conditions:

QUOTE: As sacrament, marriage is not a magical act, but a gift of grace. The partners, being humans, may have made a mistake in soliciting the grace of marriage when they were not ready for it; or they may prove to be unable to make this grace grow to maturity. In those cases, the Church may admit the fact that the grace was not “received,” tolerate separation and allow remarriage.

But, of course, she never encourages any remarriage—we have seen that even in the case of widowers—because of the eternal character of the marriage bond; but only tolerates it when, in concrete cases, it appears as the best solution for a given individual. The indissolubility of marriage does not imply the total suppression of human freedom. Freedom implies the possibility of sin, as well as its consequences. Ultimately, sin can destroy marriage. The Church, therefore, neither “recognized” divorce, nor “gave” it. Divorce was considered as a grave sin; but the Church never failed in giving to sinners a “new chance,” and was ready to readmit them if they repented. Of course, in each particular case pastoral counseling and investigation should make sure that reconciliation is impossible; and the “permission to remarry” should entail at least some forms of penance (in conformity with each individual case) and give the right to a Church blessing according to the rite of “second marriage.”

These paragraphs sound very much like the recognition of the failure of marriage in the Roman Catholic Church under which a decree of nullity is issued that recognizes that a valid marriage never did exist.

Because this is not a dogma of the Orthodox faith, I can, based upon the words of the Lord, reject this idea as a flawed attempt at charity within the oeconomia of the Church


Do you or do you not believe in Divine Simplicity?

Having never studied it, I simply cannot answer you at this time. Looking at the publications on this, it will take me a while to work through it and come to an understanding.

Recently, the Holy Father of Rome said that "In Orthodoxy, there is nothing lacking." Sounds like he is pushing for that reunion which so desperately needs to take place.

There is plenty lacking, I'm going to need the context of that quote. Four things immediately come to mind:

Firstly a belief in the indissolubility of marriage. Secondly, the dogma of the Double Procession of the Holy Spirit. Thirdly, the rejection of the dogmatic definitions of the office of the Pope at Vatican I. Fourthly, the at least apparent rejection of the dogma of Divine Simplicity (seriously do the Orthodox believe God's existence is derived from His parts?).

Let me ask you this: concerning the indissolubility of marriage (with which I agree) would you also then say that the whole idea of a decree of nullity in the Roman Catholic Church violates this indissolubility as well?

There is no double procession of the Holy Spirit. The Church has spoken through the Holy Spirit at the Council of Nicea. The issue is closed. No single person or local council such as Toledo has the right, power, or authority to override an ecumenical council which is the way the Church has spoken since the first Council in Jerusalem (Acts 15)

The dogmatic definitions of the authority and scope of rule of the Patriarch of Rome (the Holy Father) were not known in the first 10 centuries of the united Church and appear to me to be rather self-serving decrees which were designed to A.) scare the hell out of the laity and make them behave B.) establish a certain veneer of power C.) make a statement to all heretics outside the Church, such as Protestants, that their soul was in danger because of rebellion against the Roman Church. In other words, I have authority because I say I have authority. Sounds kind of like a circular argument to me. The Early Church would not recognize the manner in which the Medieval Church of Rome sought to establish its power. The Holy Father of Rome was a sign of unity, one who, as the "chief servant of the servants of God," settles disputes when no agreement could be reached, and who held a place of first among equals. The last couple of popes appear to have been attempting to return to this model.

As for Divine Simplicity -- as I said, I have to study that to understand it. However, since you appear to wish by your questions to clarify our position, there are a number of other dogmatic statements, such as the idea of Indulgences, which are going to have to be worked through before there can be a reunion. The Catechism of the Ukrainian Catholic Church has nary a single word in it regarding Indulgences, unlike the RC catechism. Our understanding of Our Lady's immaculate state is also quite different, not being established in Augustinian musings on Original Sin and a mistranslation of Romans.

And perhaps this something you will have to work on understanding - there are Catholics who are not necessarily Roman Catholic, either in dogmatic understandings, liturgical principles, or disciplines within our sui juris churches.


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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:39 pm 
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This imbedded quoting is getting two much:

1. No, nullity means there was no marriage to absolve. Henry VIII didn't get a second marriage because he was unhappy with his VALID first marriage. If there was some honest canonical issue with the marriage, then it simply would have never been in fact a marriage.

2. The Creed was changed at the Council of Constantinople, so yes the Church under the authority of the Pope has authority to change the Creed as long as there is no contradiction with it's prior forms.

3. Now you really got yourself in trouble with the last bit. Dogmas aren't matters of rites, they are matters of faith, and there is only one Catholic faith.

If you are saying you do not accept the Catholic faith, why do you call yourself Catholic?

How can something be dogmatic juridically and not factually? If Vatican I did not truly have the authority (and the guidance of the Holy Spirit) to define Papal Infallibility, then every Pope since Pius IX has been binding people under penalty of damnation without the certainty of faith.

How on earth you could think that a Pope who pretends to be infallible but is not in fact is worth being in union with is absurd.

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:40 pm 
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Note: I don't accept that your view accurately represents the truth of the Greek Catholic Church

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessa ... anguage=en

I understand there is a level of incommersablity in the language of dogma and the way we explain or emphasize them. But the substance of dogma is absolutely essential for being Catholic in any meaningful sense.

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Lyons 2 and Florence are both ecumenical councils. The East agreed to all this then.

Before that, the Athanasian Creed spoke of the procession of the Spirit from Father and Son and the Formula Of Hormisdas is quite clear that communion with Rome was a requisite for sound doctrine and avoiding schism

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Quote:
3. Now you really got yourself in trouble with the last bit. Dogmas aren't matters of rites, they are matters of faith, and there is only one Catholic faith.


There is indeed only one Catholic faith. Catholic.....not Roman Catholic.....just Catholic. "Katholicos," meaning, as St. Vincent of Lerins states, "That which has been believed always, everywhere, and by all people."

Which would mean that anything that was decreed dogma after the separation of the Church in 1054 AD by the Western Church is simply not dogma because A.) the whole Church, East and West, did not agree upon it, B.) those things were not taught by the Early Fathers and are in contradiction to them and C.) therefore are heterodox and not orthodox.

As for your question on Divine Simplicity, I have been asking some of my Orthodox friends about this and they insist that they accept Divine Simplicity as truth. I'm not sure why you think and said otherwise. I still am going to have to work to understand it myself.

The Church is the Body of Christ. The Eucharist is the Body of Christ. Therefore, any body which has valid orders going back to the Apostles and thus has Christ present in the Eucharist in their Temple, is part of the Church. And therefore, St. Seraphim of Sarov is a saint in the Church, just as St. Padre Pio or Saint Therese of Lisieux. The more I look at the issues, the more I think that there is error on all sides, but the Eucharist is what keeps us connected to Christ's Body and the holy Sacrifice of Yom Kippur done in the heavenlies by the Great High Priest, Christ Jesus the Lord, is what covers the errors and sins in the Church just as the earthly Yom Kippur did for national Israel.

I am beginning to be dismayed at all the rock throwing from the Traddiedox and the RadTradCaths on either side. We will never work out the differences, errors, and problems to return to a united Church as long as that lasts.


Last edited by Light of the East on Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:11 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
Lyons 2 and Florence are both ecumenical councils. The East agreed to all this then.

Before that, the Athanasian Creed spoke of the procession of the Spirit from Father and Son and the Formula Of Hormisdas is quite clear that communion with Rome was a requisite for sound doctrine and avoiding schism


Well, that's nicely confusing to me.

Hmmmmm........

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

23 kind of leaves things hanging if you look at it. Proceeding from whom? The way that is written is kind of an open-ended statement by which one could say just about anything. It doesn't specify from whom. Could it be that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed was a point of clarification on this?

It seems also that by the eleventh century, the pope of that time had the original Creed -sans filioque - engraved on golden plates at the Vatican to make a point on the proper understanding. Why was his action so ignored in the West?

As for the Formula of Hormisdas, I was doing a little research on it and came across this interplay at another forum:

Quote:
>>>This is powerful stuff.<<<

Not really. Every now and again, a "Catholic" apologist will dredge it up as "proof" that the Eastern Churches accepted "papal supremacy". But to put the Acacian Schism and the "Formula of Hormosidas" in those terms is anachronistic at best, and ignores the actual historical context of both the dispute and the resolution.

>>>I really would like to know what the modern Orthodox response would be such a precedent from the early Church. I hope it is something better than trying to dodge the question by claiming the "Apostolic See" didn't necessarily refer to Rome.<<<

The answer is that the "Formula" was imposed on the Eastern Churches by the Emperor Justin I as a means of ending the Acacian Schism and therefore open the way to the reestablishment of Byzantine jurisdiction over Italy (which was accomplished by Justin's successor Justinian the Great). When the document was ratified by the Church of Constantinople, the Patriarch signed his name with a caveat, that "Constantinople, being 'New Rome', is one with and equal to 'Old Rome'". There was never on the part of the Eastern Churches any interpretation of the Formula of Hormosidas as making them "subordinate" to the Church of Rome, let alone the notion that Rome had any sort of jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches. Going beyond the immediate facts around the signing of the Formula, one must look at how the Eastern Churches actually lived their relationship with the Church of Rome in order to see what interpretation must be given to the Formula itself. And there, we see that the Eastern Churches acted as full and independent, neither subordinate to or under the jurisdiction of Rome. In effect, everything stayed as it was, and in the three centuries after the signing of the Formula, it remains an historical fact that the Bishop of Rome had to have his election ratified by the Emperor of New Rome, and had to submit a synodicon to the imperial exarch at Ravenna. In other words, the Formula of Hormosidas had absolutely NO effect on the inner or outer lives of either the Western or Eastern Churches, and therefore has no bearing on relations between the Eastern and Western Churches today--except in the minds of people like Jim Likoudis.

>>>Of course Rome was not the only Apostolic See. But it is manifestly obvious that in this context, the statement is certainly referring to Rome. This at the very least is a confirmation that the Primacy of Rome is an Apostolic tradition acknowledged by the early Church.<<<

Meaning nothing, since the primacy of Rome was acknowledged throughout the Ecumene (the bounds of the Roman world, East and West). The key question, always ignored by both sides, is what primacy actually meant at the time when there was unity in the Church. And most assuredly, that primacy bore no relationship to the Roman self-defined concept that emerged in the wake of the Gregorian reforms and which reached its apogee in Pastor Aeternus.


So apparently there is more than one way of viewing the Formula and the intent that it had at that time. There is a rather human habit in all of us of going back in time, taking quotes, and retooling them to serve our needs. Because of this, any such discussion as we are having now requires a lot of digging, study, and consideration when an issue such as this comes up.


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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Location: As I understand it.....in God's will. This is the best place to be.
Religion: Orthodox (In Communion With Rome)
Church Affiliations: Past Grand Knight KoC 15107
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Note: I don't accept that your view accurately represents the truth of the Greek Catholic Church

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessa ... anguage=en

I understand there is a level of incommersablity in the language of dogma and the way we explain or emphasize them. But the substance of dogma is absolutely essential for being Catholic in any meaningful sense.


Again, I remind you....we are "katholicos" not Roman Catholic.

The link you gave me really shows how the Byzantine Church, especially in America, was highly latinized in the last 100 years. It is as if they all have forgotten that we are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" I say this having seen parishes where the iconostasis was torn out of the floor and the Rosary was playing on loudspeakers half an hour before the Divine Liturgy began. We were told, in no uncertain terms, that we could not have married priests in the USA because the Latin bishops didn't like it. Bishop Takach should have politely but firmly reminded Pope Pius X that the Union of Brest gave us certain promises from the Latin West and he was breaking those promises. We have seen this suppression of our Orthodox theology for 100 years, and it is, quite frankly, tiring and annoying.

We are Orthodox. Let us be Orthodox.


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 Post subject: Re: "St" Seraphim of Sarov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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FF is right and LotE is wrong. Eastern Catholicism is no Cafeteria Catholicism.

Vatican II, OE (Decree on Eastern Catholicism) (note that the Council was attended by Eastern Bishops as well):

The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate Churches or Rites....

If any separated Eastern Christian should, under the guidance of the grace of the Holy Spirit, join himself to the unity of Catholics, no more should be required of him than what a bare profession of the Catholic faith demands.


St John Paul II, OL:
The Christian tradition of the East implies a way of accepting, understanding and living faith in the Lord Jesus. In this sense it is extremely close to the Christian tradition of the West, which is born of and nourished by the same faith. Yet it is legitimately and admirably distinguished from the latter, since Eastern Christians have their own way of perceiving and understanding, and thus an original way of living their relationship with the Savior.

I know that he qualified the bold sentence, but the East is not being "extremely close" to the West when it alleges it to violate Councils and invent new doctrine to puff up itself.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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