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 Post subject: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 am 
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So someone posted this updated text in regards to the death penalty:
2267. Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

From the former:
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

My question is, doesn't this mean that the Church actually changes something completely to contrary teachings?
What implications does that have? I mean, is it something that is actually a Catholic teaching now (that previously was allowed) and does this mean that other things can evolve and change the same way (see "amoris laetitia" for example)

Thank you

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:45 am 
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The Catechism's teachings have only the authority of the teachings they are drawn from. The Catechism has no authority of its own. Since the teaching upon which the Catechism's revision rests upon has no magisterial authority, neither does the Catechism's revision.

This is all extremely unfortunate and very confusing to the faithful, but it's not a matter of doctrinal difficulty.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:54 am 
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gherkin wrote:
The Catechism's teachings have only the authority of the teachings they are drawn from. The Catechism has no authority of its own. Since the teaching upon which the Catechism's revision rests upon has no magisterial authority, neither does the Catechism's revision.

This is all extremely unfortunate and very confusing to the faithful, but it's not a matter of doctrinal difficulty.

So I suppose the real question is, why is the Pope trying to confuse the faithful?

EDIT: sorry for a silly question, but if it is not a doctrinal difficulty, why is it from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am 
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To your edit: I guess they're the ones who have the authority to issue edits to the Catechism. When I say it's not a doctrinal difficulty, I mean, we don't have to try to make sense of this from a "development of doctrine" standpoint or something--which seems pretty impossible, since such a change wouldn't be development, it would be contradiction--because we're not talking about reconciling an old Church teaching with a new Church teaching (which contradicts the old one). We've got Church teaching, which is very clear, that the death penalty can be moral. And we've got a confused and bizarre mistake pronounced by Pope Francis at a speech (i.e. not a magisterial sort of event) and now absurdly repeated in the Catechism. There's no doctrinal difficulty because the latter isn't anything like a doctrine.

The only thing we can do about Pope Francis is to continue to hold him in our prayers. What a terrible job he's got. :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:12 am 
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I am sorry, but it really bothers me.
It makes me think that either he doesn't know what he is doing or worse, he does know and is working on the destruction of the Church.

I found a pretty good article on the matter: https://onepeterfive.com/pope-francis-w ... lty-heres/

"The teaching of the Church on the permissibly of capital punishment, however, is taken from Divine Revelation; it is, in other words, infallible, and not subject to such changes – even by a pope. "

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:59 am 
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Yes, that quotation is exactly right.

Why is Pope Francis doing so many dunderheaded (or worse) things? I don't know. But I do know that dwelling on it and spending time and energy being "bothered" by it is unproductive or worse. Pray for the Pope, and otherwise forget about him.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:25 am 
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So while the phrase inadmissible is distinct from intrinsically wrong.

Edit; take back

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Last edited by ForeverFaithful on Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:49 am 
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Link to the official document, I always want that instead of articles about the document:

http://press.vatican.va/content/salasta ... 0802b.html

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Sure, but linking to the "official document" doesn't improve matters or clear up any confusion. This confusion is 100% caused by official documents issued through official channels.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:45 pm 
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Pope Francis has also said that life imprisonment should be abolished as well. At their heart, all arguments against capital punishment are, in principle, arguments against any punishment at all

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Pope Francis has also said that life imprisonment should be abolished as well. At their heart, all arguments against capital punishment are, in principle, arguments against any punishment at all

One wonders how many members of the Church hierarchy believe in retributive justice at all

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Pope Francis has also said that life imprisonment should be abolished as well. At their heart, all arguments against capital punishment are, in principle, arguments against any punishment at all

One wonders how many members of the Church hierarchy believe in retributive justice at all


What I've never understood is the argument that capital punishment is 'revenge', but no one has ever been able to explain why capital punishment is 'revenge' but a prison term is not. The distinction seems to me to be purely arbitrary. If I really hated someone, I could seek revenge by trying to get him sent to prison just as much as I could seek revenge by trying to get him executed.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:59 pm 
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How many times has the Catechism been changed after the official Latin version was accepted?

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:18 am 
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Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Pope Francis has also said that life imprisonment should be abolished as well. At their heart, all arguments against capital punishment are, in principle, arguments against any punishment at all

One wonders how many members of the Church hierarchy believe in retributive justice at all


What I've never understood is the argument that capital punishment is 'revenge', but no one has ever been able to explain why capital punishment is 'revenge' but a prison term is not. The distinction seems to me to be purely arbitrary. If I really hated someone, I could seek revenge by trying to get him sent to prison just as much as I could seek revenge by trying to get him executed.


The purpose of incarceration is to punish and to rehabilitate. We seem to often forget about the second part.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:51 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
The purpose of incarceration is to punish and to rehabilitate. We seem to often forget about the second part.

The primary purpose of any punishment for crime is retribution. Rehabilitation is secondary.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:39 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:

The purpose of incarceration is to punish and to rehabilitate. We seem to often forget about the second part.


Rehabilitation was something no one was concerned about before the 1960's. That certainly was not something that anyone was concerned about during the Middle Ages or in the Early Church, and certainly not in ancient Israel under the law of Moses. Indeed, before the 20th century, there was no such thing as being 'sent to prison' for any reason other than to await trial, anything that was considered worthy of a trial would be a capital offense if convicted, the defendant was executed. There was no 'prison sentence.'

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
How many times has the Catechism been changed after the official Latin version was accepted?



Dunno, they didn’t bother to correct typos in Latin Nova Vulgata Bible.

The link below shows the current list of typos:


http://www.sacredbible.org/articles/nov ... -typos.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:30 am 
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The point I never see brought up is the right of other convicts and prison workers to be safe and protected from those who are hell-bent on doing as much evil as possible in this lifetime. Denying such people exist is denying reality. And prison guards still get all manner of disease, some of which is currently incurable, working with death row inmates because among other things, when they go off the rails they like to fling bodily fluids they collect at the guards.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:50 am 
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BlueyedMule wrote:
The point I never see brought up is the right of other convicts and prison workers to be safe and protected from those who are hell-bent on doing as much evil as possible in this lifetime. Denying such people exist is denying reality. And prison guards still get all manner of disease, some of which is currently incurable, working with death row inmates because among other things, when they go off the rails they like to fling bodily fluids they collect at the guards.


Not to mention the number of people who are murdered in prison. Granted, most of the people who get murdered in prison are people who are guilty of heinous crimes themselves, who in earlier eras would have been executed, child molesters, child murderers etc. so I suppose some people could argue that being murdered in prison is a form of 'justice' that would have been otherwise denied.

But that still doesn't account for the high prevalence of prison rape, the majority of which is committed by defendants who would have been executed, and tend to be committed against non-violent offenders, people who commit white collar crimes or burglary that doesn't involve murder.

How do we protect other prisoners without capital punishment?

The other issue I have is that this analysis is a very 'first world' centric analysis. One might argue that in the United States or western Europe, we have the ability to deal with violent offenders by non-lethal means, but what about people in the third world, or poorer countries which don't have the resources to build a massive prison system? I seriously doubt that Francis' native Argentina could build something as efficient and advanced as the supermax prisons we have in the west. What are they supposed to do with their violent felons if they can't execute them? I thought that the Pope was supposed to be especially concerned about the Third World.

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 Post subject: Re: Change of the Catechism in regards to the death penalty
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:44 pm 
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BlueyedMule wrote:
The point I never see brought up is the right of other convicts and prison workers to be safe and protected from those who are hell-bent on doing as much evil as possible in this lifetime. Denying such people exist is denying reality. And prison guards still get all manner of disease, some of which is currently incurable, working with death row inmates because among other things, when they go off the rails they like to fling bodily fluids they collect at the guards.

On behalf of my fellow corrections professionals, thank you for the sentiment. But please don't use the term "guards." It's pejorative. We are corrections (or correctional, depending on the agency) officers or COs for short. :fyi:

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