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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:42 pm 
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To baptize a child in the Catholic Church, the person doing the baptism must have a "well-founded" hope that the child will be brought up Catholic. You'd have to sit down with someone at the local parish and talk things over with them so that they can decide whether or not this is the case.

The reason for this is, BTW, that baptism confers obligations along with grace, and one of those obligations is to worship God properly. If the child is not going to receive help in that regard, we aren't doing her a favor by baptizing her.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:19 am 
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Does an unbaptised person not have an obligation to worship God properly?


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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:23 am 
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Not in the same sense that a baptized person does.

"With great power comes great responsibility."

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:16 pm 
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I don't understand the difference. What would be the consequences for a baptised person who doesn't worship God properly, and what would be the consequences for an unbaptised person who doesn't worship God properly? In what sense would the consequences be different?


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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:26 am 
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I think the main point is really just that the Church doesn't want you to present a child for baptism and then have you (and the child) leave and never come back.

But for the differing obligations--I wouldn't put it principally in terms of consequences. That's too legalistic a way to think of it. At baptism, you are made a child of God. This puts you into a new relationship with him and with his Bride, the Church. As such, it's appropriate for you to act as though you're in that new relationship. It would be wrong for me to ignore your father, if I saw him in need. But how much wronger would it be for you to ignore your father if you saw him in need?

("Wronger" didn't get underlined. Why didn't it get underlined? It's not a real word, is it? Bob didn't seem to think so.)

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 pm 
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actually it is... and it dates way back also

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:47 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvcldHwEsSM :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:57 am 
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I asked a question here yesterday but it has disappeared. I didn't imagine it because the post I was responding to, which was definitely here, has also disappeared!

That post that I was responding to was mainly just a section of the Catholic Catechism, which said something along the lines that a child cannot be baptised against the wishes of the child's parents.

So I asked: Can a child be baptised against the wishes of one parent if the other parent wishes the child to be baptised?

This could be a very important question for me, so I would very much like to know the answer. Thanks for all your help.


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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:57 am 
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The answer is that the current Church law allows for a child to be baptized with the consent of just one parent.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:03 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I asked a question here yesterday but it has disappeared. I didn't imagine it because the post I was responding to, which was definitely here, has also disappeared!

That post that I was responding to was mainly just a section of the Catholic Catechism, which said something along the lines that a child cannot be baptised against the wishes of the child's parents.

So I asked: Can a child be baptised against the wishes of one parent if the other parent wishes the child to be baptised?

This could be a very important question for me, so I would very much like to know the answer. Thanks for all your help.

Thank you for re-asking the question. As gherkin says, the current practice of the Church allows a child to be baptized even if only one parent consents.

Is there a local parish that you're connected with at all? Soon you will need to move into the practicalities of how that parish handles baptisms. The best place to start, should you decide to do so, is simply to call and say that you would like to have your child baptized. They'll start asking the questions they need to ask, and they'll be there to answer your questions as well.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:41 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I asked a question here yesterday but it has disappeared. I didn't imagine it because the post I was responding to, which was definitely here, has also disappeared!

That post that I was responding to was mainly just a section of the Catholic Catechism, which said something along the lines that a child cannot be baptised against the wishes of the child's parents.

So I asked: Can a child be baptised against the wishes of one parent if the other parent wishes the child to be baptised?

This could be a very important question for me, so I would very much like to know the answer. Thanks for all your help.

Thank you for re-asking the question. As gherkin says, the current practice of the Church allows a child to be baptized even if only one parent consents.

Is there a local parish that you're connected with at all? Soon you will need to move into the practicalities of how that parish handles baptisms. The best place to start, should you decide to do so, is simply to call and say that you would like to have your child baptized. They'll start asking the questions they need to ask, and they'll be there to answer your questions as well.


Side note; agreed with the pickle? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:33 am 
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I heard somewhere that a person can be baptised by another person who isn't a priest, nor even a Catholic, nor even a Christian, is that correct? If so, is it only under very exceptional circumstances when this is allowed, and if so, what are those circumstances?

I know what some of you may be thinking I'm thinking of, but I'm not thinking of that, honestly! I'm just curious and trying to get a better general understanding.

Also, something else I'm curious about, no practical reason for asking this question, is it always necessary to have water for a person to be baptised? What is baptism of desire?


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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:50 am 
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In case anyone is puzzled, the thing I think some of you may be thinking I'm thinking of is that I'm thinking of baptising my daughter myself, secretly, without her father knowing, but I'm not thinking about that because I'm sure it's not a practical possibility. I just want to understand more about baptism.

If your child or mother or father or husband or wife was a Christian but was not baptised, would you worry about it? If so, why?


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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:06 am 
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Basically, when a person is in imminent danger of death and there's no other reasonable option, then anyone may baptize, so long as he says the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," and he pours water over the head. Yes, water is necessary. Baptism of desire isn't an exception to this: baptism properly speaking is a sacrament, while baptism of desire isn't. It's a term that's used to describe the fact that if, say, a person is in RCIA (aiming to be baptized at Easter), and dies beforehand, then his explicit desire for baptism will, in the eyes of God, suffice. Roughly put.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:09 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
If your child or mother or father or husband or wife was a Christian but was not baptised, would you worry about it? If so, why?


If they're not baptized, they're not children of God, and hence not Christian. (Noting the complications that can occur, such as, sort of, in the case of baptism of desire, for example. Though note that in that case we're talking about dead people, not living people.) Being a Christian isn't about liking Jesus, or thinking certain kinds of things about him, it's about being efficaciously brought into His Body, the Church. If you follow Christ, you do his will--he's very explicit about you needing to be baptized, so, it's the first thing you'd seek to do if you wanted to be a Christian.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:13 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I heard somewhere that a person can be baptised by another person who isn't a priest, nor even a Catholic, nor even a Christian, is that correct? If so, is it only under very exceptional circumstances when this is allowed, and if so, what are those circumstances?


We should make a distinction here between licit and valid

Anyone can validly administer a baptism on condition that there is proper matter, form, substance, and intention.

The matter is the water being used, the form is the words "I baptize you (n) in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" and substance is the meaning of those words (since Mormons have a radically different understanding of the Godhead, the Church has deemed that there baptisms are invalid because even though they use the right form they do not mean the same thing)

The intention can be as simple as "I wish to baptize this person as Christ told us to" and is only really not present if someone is manifestly not intending to truly baptize (for example the baptism scene in The Godfather is not intended to be real just is just actors playing roles in a movie)

However, unless there is an emergency, Catholics who are not clergy are not permitted to preform baptisms, nor are they allowed to seek out baptisms from non-clergy. Not because it would be an invalid or ineffective baptism, but simply because the Church requires by its law that Catholics seek baptism from Catholic ministers.

People who convert to Catholicism from other forms of Christianity (like me :wave ) don't need to be re-baptized on entering the Church because the baptism we recieved as Protestants or Orthodox Christians are recognized as valid (though there are sometimes exceptions)

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I know what some of you may be thinking I'm thinking of, but I'm not thinking of that, honestly! I'm just curious and trying to get a better general understanding.

Also, something else I'm curious about, no practical reason for asking this question, is it always necessary to have water for a person to be baptised? What is baptism of desire?


Water baptism is absolutely necessary (John 3:15). The sacrament of baptism can only be validly administered by use of natural water. No beer, no soda, no any other liquid. Baptism is done in water.

However, without denying the true necessity of water baptism, the Church has recognized two ways someone might be saved without receiving a valid baptism. One is the baptism of blood, where those who are becoming Catholic but are killed for their Christian faith before they receive the sacrament of baptism are believed to receive remission of sin by dying for Christ even without water baptism.

Baptism of desire is the belief that if a catecheum (one preparing for baptism) truly hates his/her sins not just for fear of punishment or desire for reward, but because they offend God and if they truly love God above all things, that such a person if he/she were to die by chance before receiving water baptism they would still be forgiven their sins and saved.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:21 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
The intention can be as simple as "I wish to baptize this person as Christ told us to" and is only really not present if someone is manifestly not intending to truly baptize (for example the baptism scene in The Godfather is not intended to be real just is just actors playing roles in a movie)

Good point, and I forgot to mention intention in my post. But the intention doesn't even need to be something like "as Christ told us to," as though the person doing the baptism believed at all in what he was doing. The intention can be extremely minimal, like "I'm doing what this guy wants me to do." (I think technically, the person has to be intending to do what the Church intends in baptism, but I doubt that has to be put quite so technically by the actual minister, in the crazy case of a non-Christian doing an emergency baptism.)

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:44 am 
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gherkin wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
The intention can be as simple as "I wish to baptize this person as Christ told us to" and is only really not present if someone is manifestly not intending to truly baptize (for example the baptism scene in The Godfather is not intended to be real just is just actors playing roles in a movie)

Good point, and I forgot to mention intention in my post. But the intention doesn't even need to be something like "as Christ told us to," as though the person doing the baptism believed at all in what he was doing. The intention can be extremely minimal, like "I'm doing what this guy wants me to do." (I think technically, the person has to be intending to do what the Church intends in baptism, but I doubt that has to be put quite so technically by the actual minister, in the crazy case of a non-Christian doing an emergency baptism.)


I was thinking of writing "what Christ or the Church told us to do" but really the Church is only passing on Christ's own desire :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:48 am 
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I disagree with gherkin :cloud9:

The requisite intention is not to intend what the Church intends. The intention is to do what the Church does. Trent, Sess. VII, can. 11: If anyone says that in ministers, when they effect and confer the sacraments, there is not required at least the intention of doing what the Church does, let him be anathema.

The distinction is important and is the reason why a non-believer can baptize validly. He can believe that the rite does nothing whatsoever, but he also knows that (say) his dying unbaptized friend wanted to be baptized, so he does it because it's a rite of the Church and he's doing what his friend's (crazy, to him) Church does.

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 Post subject: Re: I want to understand baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:14 am 
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Ha! That's not a real disagreement. It's just a correction to my mistake in the tentative "I think, technically," thing. :fyi:

You pretty much agreed with me. :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard

:soap: :soap: :soap: :soap: :soap: :soap: :soap: :soap:

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