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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:29 am 
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Highlander wrote:
I won't go to Mass to listen to banjos and bongos.

Exactly why I chose the parish we call home.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Our Lady's Gladiator
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checking my memory here... isn't this where you said you went ?

https://www.holyrosaryparish.org/

one of our friends, who own(ed?) the St Francis of Assisi Religious Gifts store attended that parish ... not sure if they still do as they moved to the country to get away from the big city

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:59 pm 
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To clarify just a little:

Originally (defined as "for a long time") parishes were all territorial, just as nearly all dioceses are today. (The Archdiocese for Military Services is a counterexample.) When waves of immigration, especially from Eastern Europe, hit the US, the heavily-Irish U.S. hierarchy wasn't particularly interested in accommodating the needs of all those other folks. In response, parishes were created to serve the needs of particular ethnic groups. A person who was a member of one of those ethnic groups could (and maybe had to) regard the local ethnic parish as his parish, not the territorial parish. This makes a difference because under the old canon law of the Church, a person normally could satisfy his Mass obligation only in his proper parish (unless traveling, of course) and go to confession to the priests of his proper parish (ditto). The law no longer requires this, BTW.

Then the melting pot set in. If you're Irish and married to a German, are you required to go to your territorial parish or can you go to your wife's German parish? What about your kids? In the early 1900s, someone sent an official query to the Holy See, and the response was essentially that people weren't required to go to their "proper" ethnic parish. (I have tried to track down the particulars on this decision several times, having lost my Church History notes, but I haven't found it. I believe the question arose from St. Louis.) And that essentially set off a free-for-all where people were (tacitly?) allowed to go to whatever parish appealed to them, at least here in the US.

There are remnants of this setup still in canon law, but they have little day-to-day effect on the life of U.S. parishes, where for all practical purposes your parish is whatever one you choose.

How much of this applies to Canada, I couldn't say.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Last edited by DominiCanis on Thu May 03, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:08 pm 
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You still have a strong flavor of that in Italy and, perhaps, other countries. The parish church is the center of the neighborhood. And neighborhood means something quite different than it does here. The piazza is next to the church, so folks gather there for social interaction. That was particularly clear in Venice, in the neighborhood where we stayed.

In places like Siena, you are born into your neighborhood (contrade) and you are actually entered onto a roll of neighborhood "citizens". Marrying outside of your cotrade used to be something of a scandal; today it is just considered a mixed marriage. There, to this day, folks would never think of doing anything important religiously except at the church in their parish where they are linked for life.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Another question might be whether you're certain you actually made a private vow or whether you merely made a promise.



What is the difference?

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:17 pm 
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+1

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:12 am 
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Norwegianblue wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Another question might be whether you're certain you actually made a private vow or whether you merely made a promise.


What is the difference?


A vow is a particular kind of promise:
Can. 1191 §1. A vow, that is, a deliberate and free promise made to God about a possible and better good, must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:59 am 
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I think the question is about the difference between personal and public vows.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Norwegianblue wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Another question might be whether you're certain you actually made a private vow or whether you merely made a promise.


What is the difference?


A vow is a particular kind of promise:
Can. 1191 §1. A vow, that is, a deliberate and free promise made to God about a possible and better good, must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion.


And what would 'merely a promise' be?

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Something less than a vow, clearly!

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Norwegianblue wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Norwegianblue wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Another question might be whether you're certain you actually made a private vow or whether you merely made a promise.


What is the difference?


A vow is a particular kind of promise:
Can. 1191 §1. A vow, that is, a deliberate and free promise made to God about a possible and better good, must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion.


And what would 'merely a promise' be?


Presumably, it would be a promise failing to satisfy one of the above listed conditions:

(1) Either it is not deliberate
(2) Or it is not free
(3) Or it is not made to God
(4) Or it is not about a possible good
(5) Or it is not about a better good

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Secular priests make promises at our ordinations, not vows :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:49 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
Presumably, it would be a promise failing to satisfy one of the above listed conditions:

(1) Either it is not deliberate
(2) Or it is not free
(3) Or it is not made to God
(4) Or it is not about a possible good
(5) Or it is not about a better good

Or it need not be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion :)

Here's an example of a promise, it's clearly not a vow:

"On my honor, and with God's grace, I promise to do my best to serve God, the Church, and my country, to help others at all times, and to obey the Explorer Law."

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
Presumably, it would be a promise failing to satisfy one of the above listed conditions:

(1) Either it is not deliberate
(2) Or it is not free
(3) Or it is not made to God
(4) Or it is not about a possible good
(5) Or it is not about a better good

Or it need not be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion :)

Here's an example of a promise, it's clearly not a vow:

"On my honor, and with God's grace, I promise to do my best to serve God, the Church, and my country, to help others at all times, and to obey the Explorer Law."


The virtue of religion phrase was not part of the definition of a vow. It was a continuation of the sentence: "A vow ... must be fulfilled by the virtue of religion." The definition was "a deliberate and free promise made to God about a possible and better good."

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Is that a relatively recent thing?

I've read some moral theology manuals, and they make reference to sins committed by people "under vow", and they say that one doesn't need to mention in confession the type of vow - religious, holy orders, that's immaterial; so that seems to suggest that it was taken for granted back then that all priests were considered under vow.

Could it be that it's just semantics? The promise one makes at ordination is gravely binding, no? So isn't that just another way of making a vow?

It's kind of like when I hear people say religious make vows of chastity. I often wonder if that terminology is accurate, even if they officially use that word. isn't it more accurate to really say they take vows of celibacy? Everyone is called to chastity; to use their sexuality as God intended it. Celibacy means abstaining from sexual pleasure. And isn't that what religious and priests really vow or promise?


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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 pm 
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The promises as they are currently phrased (all made as part of ordination to the diaconate, BTW, and only the obedience one is repeated at priesthood):

    In the presence of God and his Church, are you resolved, as a sign of your interior dedication to Christ, to remain celibate for the sake of the kingdom and in lifelong service to God and mankind?

    Are you resolved to maintain and deepen a spirit of prayer appropriate to your way of life and, in keeping with what is required of you, to celebrate faithfully the Liturgy of the Hours for the Church and for the whole world?

    Do you promise respect and obedience to me [or "your ordinary" if the ordaining bishop is not the ordinand's ordinary] and my [or "his"] successors?

None of these is phrased as a promise to God (the last is a promise to the Ordinary), so they aren't vows.

The promise of respect and obedience appears to be the same in the old rite. I'm still trying to find the rite of ordination of deacons.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:39 pm 
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The promises were made at subdiaconate, come to think of it. They're not in the first book I found. I'll keep looking.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:49 pm 
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    Dearly beloved sons, who are to be promoted to the holy order of subdeacon, you should consider again and again what kind of burden you voluntarily seek today. For thus far you are free, and you are allowed, if you wish, to pass to earthly vows; but if you receive this order it will not be lawful for you any longer to turn aside from what you have proposed to do; but you will be obliged perpetually to serve God, to serve Whom is to reign; but you will be bound to preserve chastity with His aid, and be joined forever to the ministry of His holy Church. Therefore, while there is time, reflect; and if it please you to persevere in your holy resolution, in the name of God, come hither.
By stepping forward, the candidate expresses his acceptance. I'm not quite sure what in there binds him to the Divine Office, but chastity is in there for certain. Again, however, no promise is made directly to God, and therefore it's not a vow by the standards given above.

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 Post subject: Re: Canonical Parish
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 8:32 am 
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Very interesting, thank you.

I've always mistakenly thought that diocesan priests made a vow of celibacy.


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