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 Post subject: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Master
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I’ve been pondering virtue and a question came up....

Will lack of virtue prevent one from entering Heaven?

I would think the theological virtues are a must (for salvation), but what about all the others?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
I’ve been pondering virtue and a question came up....

Will lack of virtue prevent one from entering Heaven?

I would think the theological virtues are a must (for salvation), but what about all the others?

Thanks!


So long as one has the theological virtues at the time of death, the others aren't required strictly speaking. Though they are extreeeeeemely helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
I’ve been pondering virtue and a question came up....

Will lack of virtue prevent one from entering Heaven?

I would think the theological virtues are a must (for salvation), but what about all the others?

Thanks!

The theological virtues are necessary for salvation (for those who are not invincibly ignorant of revelation) (In hope we are saved, without love I am nothing). It is by lack of virtue that we sin and lose sanctifying grace.

I think the theological virtues include the other virtues; hence I cannot conceive a person who believes, hopes and loves, and,say, is unjust.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Master
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Jack3 wrote:
Peetem wrote:
I’ve been pondering virtue and a question came up....

Will lack of virtue prevent one from entering Heaven?

I would think the theological virtues are a must (for salvation), but what about all the others?

Thanks!

The theological virtues are necessary for salvation (for those who are not invincibly ignorant of revelation) (In hope we are saved, without love I am nothing). It is by lack of virtue that we sin and lose sanctifying grace.

I think the theological virtues include the other virtues; hence I cannot conceive a person who believes, hopes and loves, and,say, is unjust.


Hmmmm, that’s an interesting thought.

What about patience? Can’t a person be impatient but still worthy of heaven?

I’m not sure I’m in agreement....

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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:55 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
What about patience? Can’t a person be impatient but still worthy of heaven?

I'm no theologian, and I'm the last person to weigh in on the topic of patience, but it seems to me there are varying degrees of impatience. One might get a little hot waiting for someone to move out of the way on the freeway. On the other hand, someone who causes a near-accident (or worse) because of road rage may be a little more uncomfortable before the Majestic Throne.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:18 pm 
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I don't think Jack3 is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:

The theological virtues are necessary for salvation (for those who are not invincibly ignorant of revelation)


Wouldn't that imply that we have to earn good salvation by performing good works?


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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:03 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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One who possesses charity possesses all of the theological virtues and the infused moral virtues. These are certainly necessary for salvation.

The necessity of the acquired virtues seems to be the case (in my opinion) also, but to a lesser degree. One can go to purgatory without possessing the acquired virtues, but one will not go straight to heaven unless one also has the acquired virtues (because not to have the acquired virtues appears to mean that one has an attachment to some form of sin). Maybe I'm wrong on this point, though.

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"Blessed Virgin Mary - Immaculate Mother of God. Crushes Satan's head in her spare time." - CCB


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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:04 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:

The theological virtues are necessary for salvation (for those who are not invincibly ignorant of revelation)


Wouldn't that imply that we have to earn good salvation by performing good works?


How? We don't acquire the theological virtues by our own work? They are infused into us by the grace of God...

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Formerly Known as Louis-Marie Flambeau and RaginCajunJoe

"Be of good heart ... you who are children of Mary. Remember that she accepts as her children all those who choose to be so. Rejoice! Why do you fear to be lost, when such a a Mother defends and protects you?" - St. Alphonsus Liguori

"Blessed Virgin Mary - Immaculate Mother of God. Crushes Satan's head in her spare time." - CCB


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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:47 am 
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Highness
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't think Jack3 is correct.

Then how about

Et quid tibi donat fides?
Vitam aeternam

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Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:14 am 
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Faith, Hope, and Love bind all relationships. Even human ones. On the human level, a natural faith, hope, and love bind. They are natural virtues, because the relationship is based on natural evidence. For a relationship with God, they are supernatural virtues... and they aren't even acquired in the natural way, but are given.

However, having faith, hope, and love, even on the natural level for human relationships, are followed by other virtues that help maintain the relationship. If I say I love someone, but lose my temper all the time on trivial things, or get drunk in order to be around them, or (enter in any other lack of virtue you want), then this strains the relationship depending on WHY I am doing so. Am I doing so because of previous vice that predates the relationship, and although I am working on it, I still fail once in a while? Then I say to my beloved, "I am sorry about that. I am working on it." My beloved says, "I know. I forgive you. I know you still love me. I am here for you." But, if I say to my beloved, "Listen, I already told you I love you. That should be sufficient. I am not going to change the way that I am for you. Either take me as I am, vice and all, or it is obvious that you don't love ME!" then it is obvious that your desire to hold on to faith, hope, and love is trumped by your desire to hold on to your vices.

People can struggle with vice. And sometimes, it is merely the struggle that is enough to demonstrate in a relationship the desire to be bettered by the relationship. In fact, that is the purpose of relationship. I can be working with two young men struggling with masturbation. One is set against it in his will and wants to be free. He still falls, but has put in an action plan to better himself and avoid the act. The other doesn't care and is actually resentful that he has to even stop. Let's say they both end up committing the act the same amount of times. Doesn't matter. Only one has truly embraced truth and a desire to stay in relationship. Only one is committed to building virtue. The number of times they fall into vice isn't so important as the desire to be rid of it. It is THIS that makes a person ready for heaven. And notice that the motivation to do so stems from the original Faith, Hope, and Charity that originally bound the relationship.

I think we need to be careful to simply reduce "vice" as simply the act committed and forget about the struggle in the will where the act originates. Faith, Hope, and Love are the mothers of all the other virtues because they bind us in relationship and should inspire a desire to improve all aspects of our being through the other virtues.

So, it is not that the other virtues (again, reducing them to simply acts) are required to be perfected in us, that makes us ready for heaven, but our desire to acquire them perfectly. Our will must be set on the good, true, and beautiful. And when they are not in any particular action, whether venial or mortal, then we have a perfectly forgiving beloved who is ready to forgive and let us try again. And it is this returning to penance, and resolution to be rid of it when we fall, that demonstrates our desire to hold on to the relationship.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Virtue and Salvation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Master
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FJ, your commentary was really quite beautiful. Thank you.

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"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits


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