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 Post subject: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:35 pm 
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My apologies if this is in the wrong area.

I'm looking for concrete examples of how feminization of society has caused harm as it relates to Catholic teaching. Or does it all? Loaded question but wanted to at least get the ball rolling.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
My apologies if this is in the wrong area.

I'm looking for concrete examples of how feminization of society has caused harm as it relates to Catholic teaching. Or does it all? Loaded question but wanted to at least get the ball rolling.


How do you mean exactly? Or, in what manner do you speak of? I suppose one prima facie example would be the massive decline in mention of the Doctrine of the Social Kingship of Christ.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:02 am 
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Givi46 wrote:
Dominic wrote:
My apologies if this is in the wrong area.

I'm looking for concrete examples of how feminization of society has caused harm as it relates to Catholic teaching. Or does it all? Loaded question but wanted to at least get the ball rolling.


How do you mean exactly? Or, in what manner do you speak of? I suppose one prima facie example would be the massive decline in mention of the Doctrine of the Social Kingship of Christ.

More social effects.

Say for example that the pay gap between men and women is somewhat true, but mostly due to other factors. And that the push to make it equal (by feminist ideologies) actually causes harm by forcing women to do things they may not be happy with.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:39 am 
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It seems to me the low hanging and most obvious examples are things like the wide spread use of contraceptives and all its attendant consequences, the redefinition of marriage--not merely the recognition of same sex "marriage" but going back to the whole concept of no fault divorce--and so the dramatically increased divorce rate, the loss of the ability to speak of real gender roles, etc. A little less obvious is the effect a lot of this has had on men, about which there has started to be some interesting discussion. A still a little more specifically, look at the effect the destruction of the family has had on the black community in particular, which is a plight I lay directly at the feet of feminist ideology. But now this is all political/moral stuff that would be different if people followed Catholic teaching, so I'm not really sure what you're looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:18 pm 
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theJack wrote:
It seems to me the low hanging and most obvious examples are things like the wide spread use of contraceptives and all its attendant consequences, the redefinition of marriage--not merely the recognition of same sex "marriage" but going back to the whole concept of no fault divorce--and so the dramatically increased divorce rate, the loss of the ability to speak of real gender roles, etc. A little less obvious is the effect a lot of this has had on men, about which there has started to be some interesting discussion. A still a little more specifically, look at the effect the destruction of the family has had on the black community in particular, which is a plight I lay directly at the feet of feminist ideology. But now this is all political/moral stuff that would be different if people followed Catholic teaching, so I'm not really sure what you're looking for.


Along these lines works......but unfortunately it gets interpreted away as not having a causal relationship.

More empirical where X leads to Y.

For example, I vaguely remember someone (can't remember who) saying that Scandinavia has some of the most feminist friendly laws and that the data shows that women basically stayed away from some of the very careers/jobs they are fighting for in the West. Almost like women are wired to be more attracted to careers that relate to caring of others. What they got paid eventually became secondary or even lower because they were happier with specific jobs.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:13 am 
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Then just in the realm of general thought, I'd remind you of what you already know, that in sociological studies, causality is very difficult to definitively show. First, there are so many variables it is difficult to isolate and make claims on this or that in particular having this or that effect on something else. There's just no way to sufficiently control for everything. So, second, true experiments are near impossible (and even unethical) to attempt, where "true experiment" is understood as having 1) clearly defined constructs that are 2) manipulable with a 3) measurable impact on the dependent variable. You can do some quasi experiments, but more often, you have to settle for strong correlations and plainly state your assumptions. The example you cite is a good one. It does seem, in fact, that in communities with sufficient gender equality, that women and men tend to gravitate to jobs associated with traditional norms. We cam speculate and the causes of that . . . in your words, it is "almost like women are wired to be more attracted to careers that relate to caring of others." That's a possibility. There may be others. The widespread use of birth control is another example, one that your church has said a great deal about. I, for another, am particular concerned about what I perceive to be the establishment of no fault divorce laws in the United States (the first be signed into law by Ronald Reagan in 1970 as governor of California, and thus my long standing argument that it was conservatives and Reagan who first redefined marriage in our country, not liberals -- they have merely been working out the logical implications of what we first insisted on). Finally, with all these caveats, you also have to remember that any proposed causal relationships have to be understood as general truths rather than particular ones. In other words, if we say that in households in which there is no father, boys tend to lack a fundamental notion of respect both for the self and for women, then even if we show that strong correlation to be true and even argue that this is causally so, we still cannot say that in any given single mother household that the boys will not have that fundamental notion of self respect. Again, it may be true in general, but may not be true in this particular.

Again, I expect you know all of this. I just wanted to offer it explicitly to help you (or any other readers) best frame whatever argument you are trying, or want, to make. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:04 am 
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Dominic wrote:
theJack wrote:
It seems to me the low hanging and most obvious examples are things like the wide spread use of contraceptives and all its attendant consequences, the redefinition of marriage--not merely the recognition of same sex "marriage" but going back to the whole concept of no fault divorce--and so the dramatically increased divorce rate, the loss of the ability to speak of real gender roles, etc. A little less obvious is the effect a lot of this has had on men, about which there has started to be some interesting discussion. A still a little more specifically, look at the effect the destruction of the family has had on the black community in particular, which is a plight I lay directly at the feet of feminist ideology. But now this is all political/moral stuff that would be different if people followed Catholic teaching, so I'm not really sure what you're looking for.


Along these lines works......but unfortunately it gets interpreted away as not having a causal relationship.

More empirical where X leads to Y.

For example, I vaguely remember someone (can't remember who) saying that Scandinavia has some of the most feminist friendly laws and that the data shows that women basically stayed away from some of the very careers/jobs they are fighting for in the West. Almost like women are wired to be more attracted to careers that relate to caring of others. What they got paid eventually became secondary or even lower because they were happier with specific jobs.


Like theJack said, it's very, very hard to establish causality empirically. Why? Because the very instant you begin making a claim about a link, you're not in the realm of empirical evidence anymore. (And this is one of the huge downfalls of sociology as a field, most of their scholars have a tenuous hold on statistical evidence to support their theories). This is why focus groups and qualitative research are used so much (At least within Political Science as a field) because it allows you to try and get at an understanding of behaviors.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:57 am 
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Dominic wrote:
...For example, I vaguely remember someone (can't remember who) saying that Scandinavia has some of the most feminist friendly laws and that the data shows that women basically stayed away from some of the very careers/jobs they are fighting for in the West. Almost like women are wired to be more attracted to careers that relate to caring of others. What they got paid eventually became secondary or even lower because they were happier with specific jobs. [/color]


Jordan Peterson mentions this phenomenon. He basically says that, in the countries with the most preference and protection of women, i.e., Scandanavia, women are migrating back to the traditional female roles. That is, when women have the greatest freedom in life choices, they choose to be women -- in the homo sapiens sense. And he is adamant that modernist/progressive/feminist whims cannot make a dent in 200.000 years of evolutionary programming.

He also opines that women's genetically determined psychological, emotional structure has evolved specifically to deal with infants. Which means that they are better equipped to handle demanding and disruptive humans with patience and forebearance.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminization of Society and Catholic Teaching
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Oh, Peterson is a statistician whose interests are in psychology and demographics. Among other things.

His lecture on why Canadian law firms are unable to retain top notch women lawyers much past the age of 30 ... regardless of salary ... is instructive.

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