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 Post subject: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Quick question: my parish is offering a vigil for Christmas tomorrow (the 24th) at 3:00 p.m. Is there anything illicit about this? I have young children and thought about taking them to this one, but I've never seen a vigil offered so early.


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Pretty sure that's fine. As far as I remember the last time this came up there isn't a hard and fast rule about how early a vigil mass can be. I'm pretty sure that we decided a 2 o'clock or even maybe a 1 o'clock would be fine. Not as sure about the 1 o'clock. The regulation gave some leeway as I recall. 4 o'clock has never been a rule, it has just become customary.

ETA: I am referring to vigil masses in general. Can't think of any reason the Christmas vigil would have separate rules, but it may. I would still think it is fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:27 pm 
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I agree with Bomb.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:37 pm 
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There is no clear definition, if the bishop allows it, then it is okay. I assume that if Mass is being held that early it must be because the priests are busy that day and it is the only time they can fit it into their schedule.


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Well, don't take my word for it. Canon law and the rules are pretty specific.

Saturday evening masses are anticipatory masses, not actual vigils, and I think their rules are a bit different. There may be a rule to have that mass at 4 or after.

Vigil masses can be earlier. I really don't think there is any problem at all with a 3 o'clock mass. Noon might even be acceptable. You'd have to read the canon to be sure. It just says evening I think, and that is interpreted fairly loosely. The diocese can also set regulations about it. There are places where vigils are done earlier than 3. That doesn't mean it is necessarily OK.

The Easter vigil has to be after sunset. Pretty sure on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:59 pm 
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You guys keep saying "vigil," but I think you mean "anticipated" Masses. :wink:

No one knows how early an anticipated Mass can begin. Some canonists think it can start as early as noon! I think 3 o'clock is probably fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Well, don't take my word for it. Canon law and the rules are pretty specific.



Except that they aren't. We've gone over and over this topic on this board and no one has ever been able to cite any specific reference anywhere which says that 'for a Mass that you attend on one day to count towards an obligation to attend Mass the next day, the Mass must be held after such and such hour'. Such a rule simply does not exist, either in Canon Law or anywhere else. I think we can agree that an 8 AM Mass cannot possibly fulfill the next day's requirement but that a 9 PM Mass does, but where exactly to draw the line, no one knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate it. I wasn't sure if there was some prohibition in canon law or not. We'll be heading to the 3:00 p.m. Mass. Merry Christmas, everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:20 pm 
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I'd go with the mass schedule as approved, I assume, by a priest. Rather than wrap myself of in analysis of whether what the priest has decided is proper.


Which leads me to a broader question. Since converting, I've noted a good deal of discussion among Catholics about why their parish/diocese is getting it all wrong on the topic of _______________. Therefore, based upon their theological training and background in canon law, the parish/diocese should change things. I've even seen comment such as, "I contacted the bishop and he didn't do anything." I'm not saying that is the case here, because I see the OP as a curiosity question, not as a call to remediation.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
I'd go with the mass schedule as approved, I assume, by a priest. Rather than wrap myself in an analysis of whether what the priest has decided is proper.


Given that Mass times in a diocese tend to be staggered, I think the decision of what time some parish offers Mass on a given day likely involves the bishop. It can't be an accident that in most dioceses you can find, on Sunday morning, a Mass at nearly every hour of the day from 7 AM to 5 PM somewhere in the city. And if it is a decision that involves the bishop, then you can be quite certain that the schedule has been made by someone with the proper authority to make these kinds of decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:38 pm 
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I believe the Bishop can set the time for when a vigil or anticipated Mass can occur. That is a separate question from what Mass fulfills an obligation. ANY Mass from Noon (or 2pm according to some) on the day before fulfills an obligation regardless of whether it is actually a vigil or anticipated Mass. A funeral, a wedding, a Confirmation, etc. Doesn't matter. So, if you attended a first communion Mass at 3pm today, even though it wasn't a Christmas Mass, then you fulfilled your obligation for Christmas (assuming you went to another Mass to fulfill your Sunday obligation as well.)

However, the rules for when an actual vigil or anticipated Mass can be said is up to the Bishop, or Canon Law if there is a specific regulation. For instance, I believe the Easter Vigil has to be near sundown according to Canon Law, so a Bishop could not allow a 3pm for that Vigil.

If a parish is offering a 3pm, then I think it is safe to assume that the Bishop has OK'd that.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:47 am 
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Doom wrote:
Given that Mass times in a diocese tend to be staggered, I think the decision of what time some parish offers Mass on a given day likely involves the bishop.

Extremely unlikely that a diocesan Ordinary would micromanage a parish in such a way.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:17 pm 
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I tend to agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm 
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yeah, i would imagine the parish priest decides the times of the Masses to fit the needs/requirements of his parishioners

looking at the Mass schedules of the parishes in our immediate area , i find a great redundance in Mass times... those that aren't the same are all within 15-30 minutes of each other

the largest gap i find is between 3 pm and 5 pm on sunday... no one is celebrting Mass then

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Given that Mass times in a diocese tend to be staggered, I think the decision of what time some parish offers Mass on a given day likely involves the bishop.

Extremely unlikely that a diocesan Ordinary would micromanage a parish in such a way.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
You guys keep saying "vigil," but I think you mean "anticipated" Masses. :wink:

No one knows how early an anticipated Mass can begin. Some canonists think it can start as early as noon! I think 3 o'clock is probably fine.

By an anticipated Mass are you referring to an Anticipatory Mass?


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Yep, pretty sure there is no distinction to be made there.

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Given that Mass times in a diocese tend to be staggered, I think the decision of what time some parish offers Mass on a given day likely involves the bishop.

Extremely unlikely that a diocesan Ordinary would micromanage a parish in such a way.


It is hardly a case of 'micromanagement', and it certainly more likely that it is the result of intent than the result of pure coincidence that it is possible to parish hop around the diocese, attending a Mass practically every hour of the day. You can go to St. Joseph's at 7, then go to St Mary's at 8, St Basil's at 9, Saint Boniface at 10, etc. That kind of scheduling DOES NOT happen by happy accident.


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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:43 am 
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only if you have superhuman speed... or don't mind arriving unfashionably late to Mass :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Vigil at 3:00 p.m.?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:00 am 
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Doom wrote:
It is hardly a case of 'micromanagement'

A bishop telling his parish priests when to schedule the regular celebration of Mass is most certainly micromanagement.

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