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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:12 pm 
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I assume he's talking about texts such as Romanus Pontifex (1455), which in part reads:

    we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors, nor without special license from King Alfonso and his successors themselves has any other even of the faithful of Christ been entitled hitherto, nor is he by any means now entitled lawfully to meddle therewith

Now perhaps you have some historical sources (not that you are all that fond of providing sources for your claims) as to the nature of this "perpetual slavery." I'm not saying what the nature of that slavery is. I'm just saying that I think Peetem's question isn't necessarily unwarranted.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:01 pm 
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On Nicholas V’s Romanus Pontifex, 1455, the renowned Fr William Most explains:
“Now the Saracens had been murdering all sorts of persons. Their religion was literally spread by the sword. Their sacred book, the Koran, says (cited from Bernard Palmer, Understanding the Islamic Explosion, Horizon House, 1980, pp. 36-37): ‘When ye encounter unbelievers, strike off their heads until ye have made a great slaughter among them, and bind them in bonds. . . .’ They also believed that to fight in such a ‘Holy War’ ensures immediate salvation, going to a sex paradise. Islamic people held Spain and Portugal for centuries, and got control of the area at first precisely by killing the ‘infidels’.”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SLAVERY.HTM

Christ, who never condemned slavery, left it to His followers to discover gradually that slavery as an institution was inconsistent with following Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:26 pm 
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In the seventh century, “Clovis II, king of the Franks, married his British slave Bathilda (who) used her position to mount a campaign against the slave trade and to redeem those in slavery.” She was declared a saint by the Church.

“Slavery ended in medieval Europe only because the Church extended its sacraments to all slaves and then managed to impose a ban on the enslavement of Christians (and of Jews).

“The theological conclusion that slavery is sinful has been unique to Christianity (although several early Jewish sects also rejected slavery.”
[The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 27, 28, 30].

U.S. Economist, Stanford University professor, and Hoover Institute Senior Fellow, African Thomas Sowell, in Black Rednecks & White Liberals, in an essay titled The Real History of Slavery, declares:
“Slavery is almost as old as humanity, and as widespread as the globe. The Islamic world was notorious for its slave trade. Slavs were notoriously slaves. In fact the word “slave” comes from slav. Arabs and North Africans enslaved Europeans, Europeans enslaved other Europeans, Africans enslaved other Africans. Everyone enslaved someone. It was all the rage. While slavery was common to all civilizations, as well as to peoples considered uncivilized, only one civilization developed a moral revulsion against it, very late in its history — Western civilization…”

Romanus Pontifex
There is little mention of slavery in this, except for: “Thence also many Guineamen and other negroes, taken by force, and some by barter of unprohibited articles, or by other lawful contract of purchase, have been sent to the said kingdoms” and the same repetition of “perpetual servitude”.

In Romanus Pontifex, the same Nicholas V repeats Eugene IV and Martin V’s decrees on the subject, and Eugene IV said, wisely warning against atrocities: “some Christians (we speak of this with sorrow), with fictitious reasoning and seizing and opportunity, have approached said islands by ship, and with armed forces taken captive and even carried off to lands overseas very many persons of both sexes, taking advantage of their simplicity… They have deprived the natives of the property, or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery, sold them to other persons, and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them,” (Sicut Dudum).


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
Quote:
anawim Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:07 am
“The only one I'm not sure of is the OEM.”

CCC #891 answers conclusively re the body of bishops, together with Peter's successor, as you have been shown.
What Magisterial document refers to “Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium”?


The Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium consists of all of the Councils of the church.
EDIT: Ooops got that backwards! The Extraordinary Episcopal Magisterium consists of all the Councils of the Church. The Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium is when an individual bishop writes a pastoral letter. That's why I'm not sure I understand the status of those.

CCC #891 addresses the Pope, not the bishops.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:18 pm 
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The “Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium” is discussed by Mark Lowery, Ph.D.
in Infallibility in the Context of Three Contemporary Developments at:
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... ecnum=2697
From Faith & Reason, Pages 225-253 Vol XXIII, Nos 3 & 4, Christendom Press, 1997-1998.
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides a short summary of these key points of Lumen Gentium 25 in sections 890-91, and regarding moral matters in 2032-40.”

“II. The Ordinary Magisterium
B. The Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium: Bishops teaching non-universally and universally.
One may conclude that since moral matters are not taught infallibly by the extraordinary episcopal or papal magisteria, they must be taught infallibly by the ordinary universal episcopal Magisterium.”
“Whether taught infallibly or defined infallibly, the matter is just as infallible.11”
Note:
“11 This is an opportune place to note the relationship between infallibility and truth. All things taught or defined infallibly are true, but not vice-versa. A doctrine can be true without it being taught as true at the level of infallible doctrine. Infallibility signifies not whether or not something is true, but rather a particular weight of authority which the Church places behind various truths that she teaches.”

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/document ... aching.htm
“The Magisterium speaks infallibly in matters of faith and morals:
1.Through the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium where the Pope acts alone speaking ex-cathedra in defining a dogma.
2.Through the Extraordinary Episcopal Magisterium when the Bishops gather in ecumenical councils and define dogmas.
3.When Bishops meet in Councils Universally and concur on some matter of faith and morals and teach it definitively.”


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Look, my question isn’t about slavery.

Now, I did read a rather good article several years ago that discussed things the Pope’s have said about it. Now, here we are years later and I have no idea where the magazine, books, web pages, or whatever it was that I read. I do recall with clarity that one article was a Catholic publication (probably “Crisis” - but I threw all of those out awhile ago) that wasn’t defending what the Pope said, but rather clarifying the Church’s potion as well as providing historical context for what and why the Pope said what he said. Was the document a Papal Bull? In all fairness, I don’t recall.....I really wish I did. The article was likely an explanation on the quote that “TheJack” provided; I simply can’t recall....

Regardless, my OP wasn’t about slavery - bad example - I should have had my documents at my side. I should have just stuck with the death penalty as an example because that’s one that clearly could cause ambiguity and confusion.

So my apologies.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:54 pm 
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I'm sorry if I contributed to the misunderstanding about your thread being about slavery or, for that matter, even about the death penalty in particular. It seemed to me your question was about the nature of the documents from which we derive our opinions regarding matters of faith and morals, where you mentioned a specific set of documents (Papal Bulls) that at least seem to support ideas that are not in agreement with what we today say about some issue of faith or morals (i.e., slavery, the death penalty). That is what I, for one, was referring to when I said I thought your question was not unwarranted. (Yay for double negatives.)

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
The “Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium” is discussed by Mark Lowery, Ph.D.
in Infallibility in the Context of Three Contemporary Developments at:
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... ecnum=2697
From Faith & Reason, Pages 225-253 Vol XXIII, Nos 3 & 4, Christendom Press, 1997-1998.
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides a short summary of these key points of Lumen Gentium 25 in sections 890-91, and regarding moral matters in 2032-40.”

“II. The Ordinary Magisterium
B. The Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium: Bishops teaching non-universally and universally.
One may conclude that since moral matters are not taught infallibly by the extraordinary episcopal or papal magisteria, they must be taught infallibly by the ordinary universal episcopal Magisterium.”
“Whether taught infallibly or defined infallibly, the matter is just as infallible.11”
Note:
“11 This is an opportune place to note the relationship between infallibility and truth. All things taught or defined infallibly are true, but not vice-versa. A doctrine can be true without it being taught as true at the level of infallible doctrine. Infallibility signifies not whether or not something is true, but rather a particular weight of authority which the Church places behind various truths that she teaches.”

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/document ... aching.htm
“The Magisterium speaks infallibly in matters of faith and morals:
1.Through the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium where the Pope acts alone speaking ex-cathedra in defining a dogma.
2.Through the Extraordinary Episcopal Magisterium when the Bishops gather in ecumenical councils and define dogmas.
3.When Bishops meet in Councils Universally and concur on some matter of faith and morals and teach it definitively.”


Lets look at a few of specific examples:
When Mahoney, the prev. bishop of L.A. issued a letter on the Eucharist...the one that Mr. Angelica criticized. I thought she was kind by calling it "confusing". I thought it was an obfuscation of the Mass, and bordered on heresy. I considered it to definitely be fallible.

My bishop has issued statements about immigration that contradicts statements from other bishops. Who is right?
Over time, there are times when an individual bishops have had their writings condemned.
I seriously think that it is only over the test of time that an individual bishops statements can be deemed infallible (or not). It does not seem to be immediately automatic.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Quote:
anawim Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:57 am
I seriously think that it is only over the test of time that an individual bishops statements can be deemed infallible (or not). It does not seem to be immediately automatic.

The statements of individual bishops are never deemed to be infallible as if they constructed them, but they teach correctly when they repeat what has been taught infallibly by the Magisterium.


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:05 am 
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theJack wrote:
I'm sorry if I contributed to the misunderstanding about your thread being about slavery or, for that matter, even about the death penalty in particular. It seemed to me your question was about the nature of the documents from which we derive our opinions regarding matters of faith and morals, where you mentioned a specific set of documents (Papal Bulls) that at least seem to support ideas that are not in agreement with what we today say about some issue of faith or morals (i.e., slavery, the death penalty). That is what I, for one, was referring to when I said I thought your question was not unwarranted. (Yay for double negatives.)


You’re all good.....you didn’t derail the conversation, other’s did. I understood what you were trying to do.

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