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 Post subject: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:27 am 
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Before I start, I am NOT trying to discuss EENS....so with that out of the way.....

I recently read a quote (in a mailing) from a Papal Bull, regarding EENS. The quote was preceded with “Ex Cathedra - ” (EC). The details about the Bull aren’t needed, hence their exclusion (and further desire to NOT start a debate - everyone knows who it was.).

To me that’s a pretty big claim since the comment was made before Vatican I. Now, I get that there were plenty of EC statements, by virtue of having the “character” of being EC, and are thus accepted as such. However, that doesn’t mean that this particular Bull does [have the character]....not saying it doesn’t either, that’s not the point. I’m trying to figure out if the label “EC” was put on their by the group that created the mailing or if they are only labeling what is already accepted as Dogma and thus, “EC”; simply put, is this their interpretation?

What I’m looking for is a source which has compiled all Church documents that would be considered “Ex Cathedra”. If its all the Papal Bulls, then so be it....

Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Vatican.va has the largest collection of documents that I've ever run across.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:53 pm 
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The Church doesn't have a list of documents that are ex cathedra, and the Pope certainly doesn't begin a document by saying 'the following is ex cathedra'.

Sometimes, people complain about this, but the reason for it should be clear; most people have the idea that if a particular statement is not ex cathedra, that means it is 'optional' and can be ignored. Why would the Pope, or ANYONE in a position in authority, deliberately undermine his own authority by telling people that there are certain things he says that you don't have to listen to?

Are you a supervisor or manager at your job, or have you ever been? Certainly, if you have been a in position of authority over others, you want the people under you to do everything you tell them to, there are almost certainly some things that you tell them to do that you regard as less important than some other things, but do you ever tell them 'okay, I'm going to tell you to do something, but if you don't want to do it, that's fine'? Of course not. It may very well be true that for some of the things you tell your employees to do, you won't really be all that upset if they don't have the time to do it, but are you going to tell them that in advance? Of course, then they won 't bother to do it at all.

Why should the Pope govern the Church differently than any boss in any other job does his? The Pope wants to be obeyed by Catholics simply because he is the Pope, getting into the habit of telling Catholics 'this statement is important, but this other statement is less important' is just going to undermine that.


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:02 pm 
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When I train new coworkers, I always distinguish between what is essential, what is not required but expected best practice. What is "just" our local practice, and the way I do things, both what I have found works best as well as my own habits. I don't think that undermine my credibility as team lead in the least. And if our department manager didn't make those distinctions (and both I have had have done so) then I would definitely think less of him and it would undermine his credibility with us.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:14 am 
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Doom wrote:
The Church doesn't have a list of documents that are ex cathedra, and the Pope certainly doesn't begin a document by saying 'the following is ex cathedra'.

Sometimes, people complain about this, but the reason for it should be clear; most people have the idea that if a particular statement is not ex cathedra, that means it is 'optional' and can be ignored. Why would the Pope, or ANYONE in a position in authority, deliberately undermine his own authority by telling people that there are certain things he says that you don't have to listen to?

Are you a supervisor or manager at your job, or have you ever been? Certainly, if you have been a in position of authority over others, you want the people under you to do everything you tell them to, there are almost certainly some things that you tell them to do that you regard as less important than some other things, but do you ever tell them 'okay, I'm going to tell you to do something, but if you don't want to do it, that's fine'? Of course not. It may very well be true that for some of the things you tell your employees to do, you won't really be all that upset if they don't have the time to do it, but are you going to tell them that in advance? Of course, then they won 't bother to do it at all.

Why should the Pope govern the Church differently than any boss in any other job does his? The Pope wants to be obeyed by Catholics simply because he is the Pope, getting into the habit of telling Catholics 'this statement is important, but this other statement is less important' is just going to undermine that.


Ok then, so Papal Bulls supporting slavery are then EC - we are to listen to them and put their teachings into practice.?

What about the death penalty? We have the CCC which teaches its acceptable (although it should be rare), but then we have Pope’s saying the practice should end.

I’m not saying that there is any contradiction. What I am saying is this - When do we listen to the Pope as our spiritual father and when do we ignore because he’s only giving personal opinion?

Therefore, is there not a source which says something to the effect - “These documents concern teachings about faith and morals relevant to the Universal Church through all ages.”

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:01 am 
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Peetem wrote:
I’m not saying that there is any contradiction. What I am saying is this - When do we listen to the Pope as our spiritual father and when do we ignore because he’s only giving personal opinion?

I don't think we can really ever ignore what the Pope says.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:02 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Ok then, so Papal Bulls supporting slavery are then EC - we are to listen to them and put their teachings into practice.?

Where can one read more about these? What teachings would we put into practice from them?

Quote:
What about the death penalty? We have the CCC which teaches its acceptable (although it should be rare), but then we have Pope’s saying the practice should end.

If the Pope were to say that the death penalty is always inadmissible, as if it were intrinsically immoral, the Pope would be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:18 am 
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Peetem wrote:

Ok then, so Papal Bulls supporting slavery are then EC - we are to listen to them and put their teachings into practice.?



Sort of like Ephesians 6 and Colossians chapter 3?

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:40 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Ok then, so Papal Bulls supporting slavery are then EC - we are to listen to them and put their teachings into practice.?

Where can one read more about these? What teachings would we put into practice from them?

Quote:
What about the death penalty? We have the CCC which teaches its acceptable (although it should be rare), but then we have Pope’s saying the practice should end.

If the Pope were to say that the death penalty is always inadmissible, as if it were intrinsically immoral, the Pope would be wrong.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/ ... zione.html

That is what I see in the words:
It must be clearly stated that the death penalty is an inhumane measure that, regardless of how it is carried out, abases human dignity. It is per se contrary to the Gospel, because it entails the willful suppression of a human life that never ceases to be sacred in the eyes of its Creator and of which – ultimately – only God is the true judge and guarantor.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Quote:
Doom: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:53 pm
Why would the Pope, or ANYONE in a position in authority, deliberately undermine his own authority by telling people that there are certain things he says that you don't have to listen to?
The reality is that Popes Liberius, Honorius and Vigilius all made grave mistakes, and were called to account, and so has Pope Francis.
As Peregrinator writes “If the Pope were to say that the death penalty is always inadmissible, as if it were intrinsically immoral, the Pope would be wrong.”

“As Tracy Rowland points out in her terrific new book Catholic Theology, ’If Pope Francis has sympathy for any particular approach to Catholic theology, it is that of ‘People’s Theology’.
“Pope Francis calls them principles for ‘building a people’.
“A common thread running through each of these principles is the tendency to give priority to praxis over theory. [NOTA BENE…] There is also a sense that conflict in itself is not a bad thing, that ‘unity will prevail’ somehow and that time will remove at least some of the protagonists in any conflict. The underlying metaphysics is quite strongly Hegelian, and the approach to praxis itself resembles what Lamb classified as ‘cultural-historical’ activity and is associated primarily with Luther and Kant rather than Marx.”
This commentary is at Fr. Z's Blog:
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2017/04/happy-1s ... tion-item/


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:48 pm 
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As far as I've always been aware the only two documents that are Ex-Cathedra, or the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium are the teachings on the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception. There's some reason to think that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is as well, but I guess that's debatable.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Quote:
Anawim Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:48 am
As far as I've always been aware the only two documents that are Ex-Cathedra, or the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium are the teachings on the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception.

Incorrect.

Answer by David M. Gregson, Ph.D. of EWTN on Nov-22-2002:
“You are correct in stating that the Pope exercises his charism of infallibility not only in dogmatic definitions issued, ex cathedra, as divinely revealed (of which there have been only two), but also in doctrines definitively proposed by him, also ex cathedra, which would include canonizations (that they are in fact Saints, enjoying the Beatific Vision in heaven), moral teachings (such as contained in Humanae vitae), and other doctrines he has taught as necessarily connected with truths divinely revealed, such as that priestly ordination is reserved to men. Further details on levels of certainty with which the teachings of the Magisterium (either the Pope alone, or in company with his Bishops) may be found in Summary of Categories of Belief.”

Perhaps you'd like to check with Dr. Gregson yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:56 am 
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Thomist wrote:
Quote:
Anawim Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:48 am
As far as I've always been aware the only two documents that are Ex-Cathedra, or the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium are the teachings on the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception.

Incorrect.

Answer by David M. Gregson, Ph.D. of EWTN on Nov-22-2002:
“You are correct in stating that the Pope exercises his charism of infallibility not only in dogmatic definitions issued, ex cathedra, as divinely revealed (of which there have been only two), but also in doctrines definitively proposed by him, also ex cathedra, which would include canonizations (that they are in fact Saints, enjoying the Beatific Vision in heaven), moral teachings (such as contained in Humanae vitae), and other doctrines he has taught as necessarily connected with truths divinely revealed, such as that priestly ordination is reserved to men. Further details on levels of certainty with which the teachings of the Magisterium (either the Pope alone, or in company with his Bishops) may be found in Summary of Categories of Belief.”

Perhaps you'd like to check with Dr. Gregson yourself.


I never said anything about infallibility. I just addressed Ex-cathedra, which relates to EPM. Infallibility on the other hand covers the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium, Ordinary Papal Magisterium, as well as the Extraordinary Episcopal Magisterium. The only category I'm not certain of is Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
If the Pope were to say that the death penalty is always inadmissible, as if it were intrinsically immoral, the Pope would be wrong.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/ ... zione.html

That is what I see in the words:
It must be clearly stated that the death penalty is an inhumane measure that, regardless of how it is carried out, abases human dignity. It is per se contrary to the Gospel, because it entails the willful suppression of a human life that never ceases to be sacred in the eyes of its Creator and of which – ultimately – only God is the true judge and guarantor.

If what His Holiness means by that is that the death penalty is intrinsically immoral, then he is wrong. If he means something else, then he is not (necessarily) wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Quote:
anawim Link to documents (Ex Cathedra) Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:56 pm
“I just addressed Ex-cathedra….The only category I'm not certain of is Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium.”
The explanations are readily available.

“EX CATHEDRA. The term commonly applied to the special and explicit exercise of papal infallibility. When the Pope speaks from the chair (cathedra) of authority, as visible head of all Christians, his teaching is not dependent on the consent of the Church and is irreformable. (Etym. Latin ex cathedra, from the chair.)”
See: http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

CCC #891: "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 [my underlining].
Note:
418 LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I:DS 3074.


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
Quote:
anawim Link to documents (Ex Cathedra) Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:56 pm
“I just addressed Ex-cathedra….The only category I'm not certain of is Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium.”
The explanations are readily available.

“EX CATHEDRA. The term commonly applied to the special and explicit exercise of papal infallibility. When the Pope speaks from the chair (cathedra) of authority, as visible head of all Christians, his teaching is not dependent on the consent of the Church and is irreformable. (Etym. Latin ex cathedra, from the chair.)”
See: http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

CCC #891: "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 [my underlining].
Note:
418 LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I:DS 3074.


Infallibility is not just ex-Cathedra. It is also freedom from error. The EPM is Ex-Cathedra and is infallible by virtue of being from the chair, and is the final word, but the OPM, and the EEM are also infallible in that it is incapable of teaching error. The only one I'm not sure of is the OEM.

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Check this:
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/document ... aching.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:27 pm 
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anawim wrote:
As far as I've always been aware the only two documents that are Ex-Cathedra, or the Extraordinary Papal Magisterium are the teachings on the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception. There's some reason to think that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is as well, but I guess that's debatable.

JPII in Evangelium Vitae pretty clearly invoked the language of infallibility in declaring procured abortion as always gravely immoral. :fyi:

Quote:
Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.


#62
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul- ... vitae.html

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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Quote:
anawim Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:07 am
“The only one I'm not sure of is the OEM.”

CCC #891 answers conclusively re the body of bishops, together with Peter's successor, as you have been shown.
What Magisterial document refers to “Ordinary Episcopal Magisterium”?


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 Post subject: Re: Link to documents (Ex Cathedra)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Ok then, so Papal Bulls supporting slavery are then EC -


There are no Papal Bulls supporting slavery, there are many reasons for this, but the most important reason is that slavery was pretty much extinct in Europe for about 1,000 years, from roughly the 6th century to the 16th, thus there was no 'slavery' to either condemn or approve, it was an institution that simply did not exist. There was, however, serfdom, which Thomas Aquinas condemned, but which ceased to exist in every country except Russia by the 14th century, and was thus not at all relevant to the political situation of the late 15th century when the Spanish introduced the slave trade.


However, there are several papal bulls explicitly condemning the Spanish for their mistreatment of the natives and introduction of the slave trade in the 15th century. The first such bull was issued in 1484, 8 years before Columbus' first voyage, in other words, the condemnation was extremely prescient. This condemnation was reiterated half a dozen times between 1484 and the rise of Lutheranism after 1517, at which point, the papacy became more concerned with battling Protestantism,

Your comments betray the all too common confusion between the race-based chattel slavery that existed in the antebellum south, which was unlike any other kind of slavery that has ever existed in any other society either before or since, and what is more accurately referred to as 'indentured servitude', or the forced labor of prisoners. Not only is there nothing morally wrong with indentured servitude, but it is allowed under the 13th amendment to the US Constitution and continues to exist in the United States today, where it is common to sentence those guilty of a misdemeanor offense to 'public service', which, technically speaking, is a form of slavery.


You are quite simply mistaken in your assumptions.


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