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 Post subject: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:58 am 
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Journeyman
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Reading about the Spanish Inquisition I'm coming across information saying that the reason the Jews were targeted by the inquisition is that there was reason to believe they were directly or indirectly involved in the Muslim conquest of Spain in the first place.

What was the reason why Jews would even want that?

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:55 am 
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I think you're a bit off. The Inquisition didn't exist until after the reconquista, and at least some Jews seem to have thought they were better off under Muslim rule. The current state of Jewish/Muslim relations has not always been the state in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think you're a bit off. The Inquisition didn't exist until after the reconquista, and at least some Jews seem to have thought they were better off under Muslim rule. The current state of Jewish/Muslim relations has not always been the state in the past.



This fits my reading.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think you're a bit off. The Inquisition didn't exist until after the reconquista,


That much I do know. If something I wrote made it out to see as if it was before the Reconquista that wasn't my intention.

But the concern that they played a role in cavorting with the moslems to make them claim the lands.


Quote:
and at least some Jews seem to have thought they were better off under Muslim rule. The current state of Jewish/Muslim relations has not always been the state in the past.


Very interesting. This I didn't know.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:07 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
GKC wrote:
and at least some Jews seem to have thought they were better off under Muslim rule. The current state of Jewish/Muslim relations has not always been the state in the past.


Very interesting. This I didn't know.


Actually, the enmity between Muslims and Jews is fairly recent - not until Wahhabism took over Islam in the post-WWII era. There is a tale I enjoy retelling that illustrates just how recently Muslims were able to halfway get along with Jews.

Quote:
Former Israeli Defense Minister [and the meanest mother in the (Beka'a) valley] Moshe Dayan was obsessed with collecting antiques.
Every chance he got, he would wander the bazaars in the Old (Arab) Quarter of Jerusalem looking for whatever caught his eye. If he found something, he would enter into the obligatory dickering with the shopkeeper. Once they'd agreed on a price, Dayan would ask if the shopkeeper would accept a check. The shopkeeper, recognizing Dayan, would agree (If you aren't familiar with Moshe Dayan, let's just say that he didn't "blend" anywhere). Dayan would write a personal check, give it to the shopkeeper, and return home with his prize. The shopkeeper, instead of depositing the check, would frame it and display it in his store until the inevitable American tourist would come in and offer an extravagant price for it. In the end, everyone was happy. Moshe Dayan got a distinctive antique for free, the shopkeeper made a tidy profit, and some dentist in Philadelphia had Moshe Dayan's autograph.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:49 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
Reading about the Spanish Inquisition I'm coming across information saying that the reason the Jews were targeted by the inquisition is that there was reason to believe they were directly or indirectly involved in the Muslim conquest of Spain in the first place.

What was the reason why Jews would even want that?


Much of the Moor occupation is referred to by Jewish authors as a Golden Period, so in my limited esteem this doesn't seem too far off.


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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
p.falk wrote:
GKC wrote:
and at least some Jews seem to have thought they were better off under Muslim rule. The current state of Jewish/Muslim relations has not always been the state in the past.


Very interesting. This I didn't know.


Actually, the enmity between Muslims and Jews is fairly recent - not until Wahhabism took over Islam in the post-WWII era. There is a tale I enjoy retelling that illustrates just how recently Muslims were able to halfway get along with Jews.

Quote:
Former Israeli Defense Minister [and the meanest mother in the (Beka'a) valley] Moshe Dayan was obsessed with collecting antiques.
Every chance he got, he would wander the bazaars in the Old (Arab) Quarter of Jerusalem looking for whatever caught his eye. If he found something, he would enter into the obligatory dickering with the shopkeeper. Once they'd agreed on a price, Dayan would ask if the shopkeeper would accept a check. The shopkeeper, recognizing Dayan, would agree (If you aren't familiar with Moshe Dayan, let's just say that he didn't "blend" anywhere). Dayan would write a personal check, give it to the shopkeeper, and return home with his prize. The shopkeeper, instead of depositing the check, would frame it and display it in his store until the inevitable American tourist would come in and offer an extravagant price for it. In the end, everyone was happy. Moshe Dayan got a distinctive antique for free, the shopkeeper made a tidy profit, and some dentist in Philadelphia had Moshe Dayan's autograph.


While that matches my reading, that a gift of a quote I didn't make, up there.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Nope. I first heard that account when I was a child and Dayan was still in office. I still love to repeat it.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:53 am 
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p.falk wrote:
the Jews were targeted by the inquisition

Sounds like question-begging. What do you mean when you say that the Jews were targeted by the Inquisition?

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:52 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
p.falk wrote:
the Jews were targeted by the inquisition

Sounds like question-begging. What do you mean when you say that the Jews were targeted by the Inquisition?



Netanyahu's thesis is that most conversos, who, with Jews in general, were indeed targeted by the 15th century Inquisition (Kamen agrees), were so selected for political reasons, not suspicion of secret Judiazing. And that what was looked at was the racial, not the religious aspect, and the position of the successful conversos in the social structure. It relates to the origin of the Inquisition then as at the behest of the Spanish Sovereigns, to which the Church acquiesced.

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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:43 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
Reading about the Spanish Inquisition I'm coming across information saying that the reason the Jews were targeted by the inquisition is that there was reason to believe they were directly or indirectly involved in the Muslim conquest of Spain in the first place.

What was the reason why Jews would even want that?


Huh? What the heck are you reading?

In the 15th century, during the Reconquista, when the Muslims were being expelled, there was a wave of anti-Semitism swept through Spain. Many Jews left, many others stayed and converted to Catholicism.

Decades later, the Jews who had converted to Catholicism were the subject of scurrilous accusations that they were secretly living as religious Jews and only pretending to be Catholic.

To combat these rumors, the king of Spain asked the Pope for permission to establish an Inquisition to investigate the truth of the accusation. Permission was granted. Note: the reason for the request is that king and the pope believed that the accusations against the Jews were FALSE, and they wanted to investigate the rumors in order to prove that the accusations were false and end the rumor mongering. In this goal, they were largely successful as the Inquisition never found any proof that the accusations were true, and the overwhelming majority of the cases it considered resulted in the vindication of the accused.

Again, it is important to note that the purpose of the Inquisition was the same thing as the purpose of our own legal system: to protect the rights of the accused by requiring accusers to provide proof of their accusations and to give those accused the benefit of due process, to prevent mob rule and protect the accused from mob violence and thus to establish public order and maintain the peace.

It is also important to note that the Inquisition actually had a reputation for being the FAIREST and most reasonable court in Europe, the Inquisition was certainly more fair than the secular courts. Often, someone who was tried before a secular court would intentionally say something heretical in an attempt to get his case transferred to the Inquisition, because the Inquisition was more fair, the punishments tended to be more lenient, and most cases ended in acquittal.

When the Spanish Inquisition was abolished in 1833, there were riots demanding its return, the Royal courts were a joke, the Inquisition was the only place that criminals could get a fair trial.

'Inquisition' is a word that gets a bad rap. All it means is 'an investigation'. In the United States, our legal system is called an 'adversarial' system. But in most of Europe, particularly in France, they still, to this day, have an 'inquisitorial' legal system. Whenever there is a crime or something that needs to be investigated in France, they say 'we are going to establish an inquisition to figure out what happened.'

Remember when Princess Diana died in a car accident in France? I remember the very first story I read said 'authorities in France say that they will establish an Inquisition to determine if criminal charges can be filed against the photographers who caused the car accident.'

An inquisition is simply a kind of legal proceeding, one quite different from our own adversarial system yes, but not 'bad' in and of itself, just different.


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 Post subject: Re: What was in it for the Jews.... Muslim conquest
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Journeyman
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Doom wrote:
p.falk wrote:
Reading about the Spanish Inquisition I'm coming across information saying that the reason the Jews were targeted by the inquisition is that there was reason to believe they were directly or indirectly involved in the Muslim conquest of Spain in the first place.

What was the reason why Jews would even want that?


Huh? What the heck are you reading?





Tom Woods - "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" mentions it.

Vox Day in his article "Atheists and Inquisition":

Quote:
"This was troubling, as it was reasonable to assume that those who were lying about their religious conversion were also lying about their loyalty to the united crowns and it was widely feared that the Jews were again encouraging Muslim leaders to attempt the recapture of al-Andalus, as they had its original capture eight centuries before. ("It remains a fact that the Jews, either directly or through their coreligionists in Africa, encouraged the Mohammedans to conquer Spain." The Jewish Encyclopedia (1906). Vol XI, 485.)

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