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 Post subject: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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One of my friends is an RCIA director at my old Newman Center. He told me once that he was in conversations with a man who had grown up Eastern Orthodox (and whose kids had been baptized Eastern Orthodox) who wanted to convert to Catholicism. Problem: in South Louisiana we don't have a lot of Eastern Catholic churches. We have a Maronite parish without their own church in Baton Rouge and I think a group of Ruthenians in New Orleans and that's it to my knowledge. The prospective convert was fine coming into the Roman Rite, though, but he had concerns. His kids are all toddlers (so prior to the first communion age in the Latin Church) but had already received all their sacraments of initiation (because the EOs retain the tradition of giving all 3 at the same time) and so had already been receiving communion regularly. My friend asked me if there's any way his kids would be able to receive communion in the Catholic Church.

I said that while I can't think of a reason based in the nature of the sacrament that they couldn't, I'm not well enough versed in canon law to know the ins and outs of these sorts of issues. I said they'd probably just need to talk to the priest and see what he says, but it seemed unlikely to me just on the practical grounds that anyone they approached for communion who didn't know them would probably not administer communion to them.

However, I'm curious on the actual answer to this question. I'm sure one exists. What do we do with kids who have received all three sacraments validly. Can they approach the sacrament of the Eucharist? When should they start approaching confession and how would that be handled? (I'm sure most priests would be a little concerned if someone came into the confessional and said that it was their first confession.)

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:15 pm 
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The answer is that I would call someone in the chancery.

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:04 pm 
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I think first, if an Orthodox wanted to be received into the Church he would ordinarily be received into the sui juris Church corresponding to the Orthodox communion to which he belonged. So a Ukrainian Orthodox would be received into the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. This is part of the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches, by the way.

Whether there is actually a parish church of that rite in the area doesn't seem relevant. Where one worships has no bearing on the sui juris Church to which one belongs.

Second, Eastern Catholics who have received the Sacrament of Holy Communion have the right to do so in churches of the Latin Rite. I don't think age comes into the equation.

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I'm sure most priests would be a little concerned if someone came into the confessional and said that it was their first confession.

Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I think first, if an Orthodox wanted to be received into the Church he would ordinarily be received into the sui juris Church corresponding to the Orthodox communion to which he belonged. So a Ukrainian Orthodox would be received into the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. This is part of the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches, by the way.

Whether there is actually a parish church of that rite in the area doesn't seem relevant. Where one worships has no bearing on the sui juris Church to which one belongs.

Second, Eastern Catholics who have received the Sacrament of Holy Communion have the right to do so in churches of the Latin Rite. I don't think age comes into the equation.

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I'm sure most priests would be a little concerned if someone came into the confessional and said that it was their first confession.

Why?


That has not been the experience of a number of friends I have had in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Going to a Roman church whilst on vacation or in some other way out of town has produced problems for their children to receive. In one case, a pretty strong verbal kerfuffle took place over a school's refusing to commune a child in kindergarten who was Byzantine.

The fact tends to be that when you attend a Roman church, you are expected to go by their rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Whereas you can do whatever you want in an Eastern Rite church?

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Whereas you can do whatever you want in an Eastern Rite church?


I'm searching for a charitable answer that will not start a hot verbal firefight. I guess this can be a pretty touchy subject, since this could run both ways. We have had people come into St. Ann's (before I converted. I heard this story third-hand) and literally yell the filioque during the Creed.

If the Eastern Catholic churches are in communion with Rome, there should be a mutual respect for each other's praxis. One can see this overlap, for instance, in many of the Roman churches which have added icons to their places of worship. If a mother goes to a parish school administrator and says "my son has been receiving since he was baptized as an infant," I think the charitable thing to do would be, as some schools have done, to acknowledge that and commune the child. This is not an issue of dogma or the refutation of dogma, it is a discipline, similar to the discipline of unmarried priests. I suppose this varies from diocese to diocese.

But here is a question that pops up from our conversation: if St. Vincent of Lerins is correct in saying that the faith catholic is "that which has been believed at all times, in all places, and by all people," then what really is the "catholic" or universal faith? It seems to me that this one issue wouldn't even be a problem if Rome had not left the practice of communing infants upon their baptism. Why, when the Church was united in its praxis East and West, did they decide to change and go their own way? Only in the West do you find the oddity that infant children are denied the source of eternal life until they reach some certain stage of consciousness. This was a real war of words in the Presbyterian church I left, with one side insisting upon the Western tradition of denying communion till a certain age, and the other saying that based on the precedent established in the Passover, that infants should be communed "as soon as they can chew and swallow," which was the Jewish form for reception of the Passover meal. I too the side of the Paedocommunion people after understanding the typology in the Passover, and that was one of a few things that charmed me to the East.

This, in turn, raises yet another interesting question....what would the same mother do regarding the recitation of the Creed with the filioque if her child goes to Mass during school hours? I would say the generous thing to do would be to simply inform the child to recite the Creed without the filioque so as to not cause contention. Then explain to the child later the Eastern POV regarding the filioque.

I dunno....hard questions here. Is that a good answer?


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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:59 pm 
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My point simply is that if you want respect for your Church and your ways, you need to show it for us and ours. I do not deny that many in the Latin Rite are perplexed and mishandle things at times. But I do not believe that is only a one-way street.

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:05 pm 
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Would a Latin Rite parishioner be allowed to receive on the hand? Or kneeling? Or would there be an expectation that he would do things the Eastern way when in an Eastern church?

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Would a Latin Rite parishioner be allowed to receive on the hand? Or kneeling? Or would there be an expectation that he would do things the Eastern way when in an Eastern church?


::): Well, I'm chuckling a little bit here, Father, because if you know about how we commune our faithful, you know that a spoonful of the Body and Blood of Christ in the hand could be a messy problem. ::):

Let me make it more apropos for you. When Latin folks come to visit us, which is often, we do not insist that they make the Sign of the Cross with the tradition Eastern hand position. We also do not censure them for kneeling at certain points in the Liturgy (a true Eastern Liturgy is done entirely standing) out of reverence for the Lord's presence. And we still have dear folks who come to worship with us and by mistake and lack of knowledge, recite the filioque. No one jumps on them. It is what they know.


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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:35 pm 
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And mostly the same thing happens in reverse. Are there no insensitive Easterners? I strongly doubt that the assumption that things will be done "our way" is any stronger with one group than another.

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
And mostly the same thing happens in reverse. Are there no insensitive Easterners? I strongly doubt that the assumption that things will be done "our way" is any stronger with one group than another.


Oh, we have plenty of insensitive ones. I see one in the mirror every morning.


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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:07 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
The fact tends to be that when you attend a Roman church, you are expected to go by their rules.

si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:16 am 
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Well if a Latin Rite child receives Holy Communion early "by accident" (e.g. serving at the altar before making First Holy Communion) then I don't think he can subsequently be denied Holy Communion. So I don't giving Holy Communion to an Eastern Rite child who has already received It would be breaking any Latin Rite "rules"

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:35 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Would a Latin Rite parishioner be allowed to receive on the hand? Or kneeling? Or would there be an expectation that he would do things the Eastern way when in an Eastern church?

Receiving Holy Communion in the hand is not a right that is attached to membership in a ritual Church - it depends on the rite of Mass at which one is assisting. Probably similarly with posture.

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:18 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure most priests would be a little concerned if someone came into the confessional and said that it was their first confession.

Why?


Because if a priest hadn't planned on hearing a first confession, he might be concerned about whether the penitent had received proper formation prior to coming to the sacrament. If, for instance, someone comes in on a normal day through the confession line and says, "Father, I've never been to confession before" or "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. This is my first confession," I can imagine any number of concerns that might occur to the priest in question.

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 Post subject: Re: Eastern Orthodox Tiber-Swimming Question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:54 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure most priests would be a little concerned if someone came into the confessional and said that it was their first confession.

Why?


Because if a priest hadn't planned on hearing a first confession, he might be concerned about whether the penitent had received proper formation prior to coming to the sacrament. If, for instance, someone comes in on a normal day through the confession line and says, "Father, I've never been to confession before" or "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. This is my first confession," I can imagine any number of concerns that might occur to the priest in question.

Just a few generations ago children were expected to go to confession on their own before receiving First Communion, there was no big to-do about First Penance.

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