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 Post subject: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:42 pm 
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I suppose this may be an odd question. But I think this is coming from a blending of my LDS faith and Protestant background.

But my question is, do I even need to be catholic to be saved? The way the Mormon church teaches, I need to be baptized by one having authority. From what I have read Catholicism will accept the efficacious nature of a baptism if it is done by one for the right reason, that is, the removal or original sin.

My question is, if I believe in Christ and accept his position as son of God and savior of the world through his atonement. And then proceed to live like him as best I can, do I still need to follow the Catholic Church or become catholic to be saved? If that isn't taught by the catholic church I can save a lot of time and disagreement with my wife and family and still have peace knowing either of the denominations I feel COULD be the true church are good.

I hope this makes sense and look forward to your alls insights.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Commander South wrote:
I suppose this may be an odd question. But I think this is coming from a blending of my LDS faith and Protestant background.

But my question is, do I even need to be catholic to be saved? The way the Mormon church teaches, I need to be baptized by one having authority. From what I have read Catholicism will accept the efficacious nature of a baptism if it is done by one for the right reason, that is, the removal or original sin.

My question is, if I believe in Christ and accept his position as son of God and savior of the world through his atonement. And then proceed to live like him as best I can, do I still need to follow the Catholic Church or become catholic to be saved? If that isn't taught by the catholic church I can save a lot of time and disagreement with my wife and family and still have peace knowing either of the denominations I feel COULD be the true church are good.

I hope this makes sense and look forward to your alls insights.


More will follow, from others better placed to comment. But the baptism must be with the right form and with the right matter, as well as the right intent.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Ok that makes sense. And I hope my intent makes sense. I ask it coming from the blank and white heaven and hell view of Protestantism. That combined with the idea of a needed "true church" view of the LDS church.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Have you heard of Henry IV of France? He was the founder of the House of Bourbon, which ruled France until the Revolution. He was originally a Protestant, and after the death of Henry III, he was supposed to ascend to the throne as his successor, yet French Catholics who denied that a Protestant could be king united against him, and there was a period of civil war. The period ended when Henry suddenly announced that he was converting to Catholicism, according to legend, he announced his conversion by saying that 'Paris is well worth a Mass.' The assumption has long been that his sudden conversion was politically motivated so that he could win the crown.

What actually happened is that Henry was unsure whether Protestantism or Catholicism was the true religion, so he asked two theologians, one Protestant and one Catholic. The question he asked the Protestant was 'can I still be saved as a Catholic?' the answer he got was 'yes.' Then he asked the Catholic 'can I still be saved as a Protestant?' and the answer he got back was 'no.' So he decided to become Catholic because he figured that even if the Catholic Church was wrong and the Protestants were right, he could still be saved as a Catholic, but if the Catholics were right and the Protestants were wrong, and he was a Protestant, he would go to hell. So, therefore, being Catholic was the better bet since both theologians agreed that he could be saved as Catholic.

Now, that is still a bit of a cynical ploy on Henry's part, but the point is that he was concerned less about being king and more about his personal salvation.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Please also note that Mormon baptism is not considered valid: https://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

The fulness of salvation is communicated through the Catholic Church as outlined in Dominus Iesus:

Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... us_en.html

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:29 pm 
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The position at the link above was what I was suggesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:15 pm 
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My question is, if I believe in Christ and accept his position as son of God and savior of the world through his atonement. And then proceed to live like him as best I can, do I still need to follow the Catholic Church or become catholic to be saved? 

It you do believe in Christ and accept his position as son of God and savior of the world through his atonement. And then proceed to live like him, then why would you not be Catholic?

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:51 pm 
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Commander South wrote:
I suppose this may be an odd question. But I think this is coming from a blending of my LDS faith and Protestant background.

But my question is, do I even need to be catholic to be saved? The way the Mormon church teaches, I need to be baptized by one having authority. From what I have read Catholicism will accept the efficacious nature of a baptism if it is done by one for the right reason, that is, the removal or original sin.

My question is, if I believe in Christ and accept his position as son of God and savior of the world through his atonement. And then proceed to live like him as best I can, do I still need to follow the Catholic Church or become catholic to be saved? If that isn't taught by the catholic church I can save a lot of time and disagreement with my wife and family and still have peace knowing either of the denominations I feel COULD be the true church are good.

I hope this makes sense and look forward to your alls insights.


You're already thinking about this wrong. It's not, "What is the bare minimum I must do to be saved", but rather "What does God want?"

I don't know how much more I can say because, I still struggle from "I-must-figure-it all-out" myself. Seeking Truth leads to Catholicism, but demanding understanding does not.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:24 am 
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Thanks for all the replies. I sometimes worry I am just trying to hedge my bets. Playing the game of Henry IV it seems. According to Mormonism I can't be saved as a catholic. My concern is for the opposite, and for the very same reasons. But the thing that gives me pause is the wonder of "what must I do to be saved". In my LDS faith I must be repent, be baptized by one having authority, and endure to the end and I'm good. The question of being able this outside the LDS church is easy because of our beliefs of the restored priesthood. From what I am gathering of the Catholics, the need for authority isn't an issue with baptism(though it kind of is in that my LDS baptism is invalid). So I am trying to understand where the need of the church comes in for one looking to be saved.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:42 am 
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Commander South wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. I sometimes worry I am just trying to hedge my bets. Playing the game of Henry IV it seems. According to Mormonism I can't be saved as a catholic. My concern is for the opposite, and for the very same reasons. But the thing that gives me pause is the wonder of "what must I do to be saved". In my LDS faith I must be repent, be baptized by one having authority, and endure to the end and I'm good. The question of being able this outside the LDS church is easy because of our beliefs of the restored priesthood. From what I am gathering of the Catholics, the need for authority isn't an issue with baptism(though it kind of is in that my LDS baptism is invalid). So I am trying to understand where the need of the church comes in for one looking to be saved.



Yea these things get very frustrating and anxiety-inducing. Quick question, what does your church believe happens when you all do the sacrament of communion?

EDIT: Or Ceremony? I'm not sure if you call it a sacrament.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:49 am 
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So I am trying to understand where the need of the church comes in for one looking to be saved.
Salvation doesn't come through what we do. It comes through what God does in and for us. Specifically, saving grace is ordinarily given through the sacrament of baptism and restored if lost through the sacrament of confession. The other sacraments build up and strengthen that grace of salvation.

Some of the sacraments (confession, confirmation, anointing of the sick, ordination, Eucharist) can only be celebrated by a person to whom the authority has been given by Christ through the Church.

Therefore the Church is the ordinary means through which Christ has chosen to bring salvation to His people. The extra-ordinary means are generally available (if they are available at all) to people who are unaware of the need to seek salvation through the ministry of the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:57 pm 
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All must be Catholic to be saved. One must be joined to the Church somehow before they die to be saved. The Mystical Body of Christ and the Catholic Church are one and the same. If one knows that the Catholic Church is true and rejects Her, they are in peril. If one does not know, or there some other kind impediment, then they must be joined to the Church somehow before they die – perhaps in an extraordinary way only known to God – we can only speculate.

aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:
those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.


For clarification: This line is pulled from Vatican II and it is not as clear as it should be. One cannot make a claim that every person who receives a valid baptism is incorporated into Christ at all times – especially non-Catholics. The mystical Body of Christ and the Catholic Church are one and the same; to be incorporated into Christ means to be incorporated into the Church. One cannot judge the imperceptible and hence this line should not be read as if all non-Catholics who receive a valid baptism are a part of the Church and saved.

Quote:
For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.


Again, to clarify. What this is saying is that God gives a grace to every single person for their salvation – even those not formally a part of the Church. BUT, through this grace, if the person is saved, they would be joined to the Church in some way before they die. Hence, there is no salvation outside the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Commander South wrote:
I suppose this may be an odd question. But I think this is coming from a blending of my LDS faith and Protestant background.

But my question is, do I even need to be catholic to be saved? The way the Mormon church teaches, I need to be baptized by one having authority. From what I have read Catholicism will accept the efficacious nature of a baptism if it is done by one for the right reason, that is, the removal or original sin.

My question is, if I believe in Christ and accept his position as son of God and savior of the world through his atonement. And then proceed to live like him as best I can, do I still need to follow the Catholic Church or become catholic to be saved? If that isn't taught by the catholic church I can save a lot of time and disagreement with my wife and family and still have peace knowing either of the denominations I feel COULD be the true church are good.

I hope this makes sense and look forward to your alls insights.


While it's possible to be saved as a Protestant, it's like having to go for emergency surgery rather than just a yearly physical. Far easier to get and stay healthy than to have to go through triage to save your life.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:27 pm 
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anawim wrote:
While it's possible to be saved as a Protestant


Just a clarification again because the wording is not very good here: It's possible for all to be saved - it's not possible to remain protestant and be saved.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:58 am 
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Commander South wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. I sometimes worry I am just trying to hedge my bets. Playing the game of Henry IV it seems. According to Mormonism I can't be saved as a catholic. My concern is for the opposite, and for the very same reasons. But the thing that gives me pause is the wonder of "what must I do to be saved". In my LDS faith I must be repent, be baptized by one having authority, and endure to the end and I'm good. The question of being able this outside the LDS church is easy because of our beliefs of the restored priesthood. From what I am gathering of the Catholics, the need for authority isn't an issue with baptism(though it kind of is in that my LDS baptism is invalid). So I am trying to understand where the need of the church comes in for one looking to be saved.

And that's the problem with any form of Pascal's Wager (if you aren't familiar with it, do google it. It'd be worth you time). I'll be careful what I say here as I'm not a Catholic and this isn't the apologetics board (it isn't even the Lyceum!), but let me suggest this, which I think all Catholics would agree on: seek the truth before your own salvation. It's good that you want to know, "Sir, what must I do to be saved?" That question is asked in Scripture, so there's nothing wrong in answering it. And there is a biblical answer. But I don't get the impression that what you need to hear is the quotation of a verse or a "Sunday school answer." What you need is to understand. For better or worse, that's where you are. But that raises a real question -- are you willing to find, to believe, the truth, once you find it? Are you willing to say, "Amen"? Or are you only willing to give assent to what you already believe, to what you've already accepted? It's easy to say that we want to know and believe the truth, but when we find that the truth is contradictory to what we've already come to believe, that's a truly difficult thing. So in the spirit of the board, and in line with Catholic language, I'd suggest cooperating with the grace God has already given you. And to the extent you do that, you'll find more, and more, and more, until eventually you reach the truth. And the truth will set you free, it will lead to your salvation . . . if you're willing to believe it.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:24 am 
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Commander South wrote:
So I am trying to understand where the need of the church comes in for one looking to be saved.


For one, being saved is not a one time event but something that we must work out with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Or as a prize that we must run a good race to win. (1 Cor. 9:24). We can only do that by continually receiving God's grace. The most important example of which is the reception of Holy Eucharist, the "source and summit of the Christian life".

"Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you." (John 6:53.)

Only the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches have a valid consecration of Holy Eucharist.

I think the real question for you as a Mormon is whether you believe that Joseph Smith was truly who he said he was. Did he really restore the church and it's authority? Was that authority ever lost, (which Scripture would plainly dispute, "the gates of hell will never prevail against it."). Did God really allow and know it would become apostate (after Christ's atonement for our sins), for almost 2,000 years before restoring it in 1830?

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:28 am 
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I think people may misunderstand my intent with the story of Henry IV. I wasn't arguing for a 'Pascal's Wager' type reasoning, I was merely illustrating the point that the Church has always held that salvation is only found within the Catholic Church, and that in the past, the Church was a lot more emphatic on this point than it is at present.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:36 am 
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Desertfalcon wrote:
. Did God really allow and know it would become apostate (after Christ's atonement for our sins), for almost 2,000 years before restoring it in 1830?


I don't want to be polemical, but if the question is which church has the credentials to be considered THE Church founded by Christ, then a serious, objective, study of history can only convince an honest person that the Mormon church, or as it calls itself 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' has no legitimate claim.

Both the Catholic Church and the LDS church make historical claims about its origins and history. And only one of the two claims is consistent with the evidence of history, and it isn't the LDS church. The Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures make claims about history which have not only not been confirmed, despite decades of attempts by Mormon archeologists and historians to find evidence to confirm the historicity of the events in the Book of Mormon, but which, I think, at this point, can be said to have been disproven.

And one doesn't have to take a polemical approach such as that taken by someone like Fawn Brodie and argue that Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud and a professional con man, in order to argue that the historical claims made in the Book of Mormon are quite simply false.

No ad hominem is necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:42 pm 
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theJack wrote:
What you need is to understand.


To a point. I've heard many protestants ask the question "If you don't understand something, how can you believe in it?" I don't know if it's a different way of thinking or what, but for myself, I don't think I'll ever fully understand something like the sacraments, the union with Christ in the Mass, the Eucharist, etc. Trying to do so can sometimes cause a great amount of distress and spiritual stasis/regression. The moments where I feel I "get" it, a small and dim a glimpse as I am given---it's the kind of knowledge that is had only through experience (or at least, I find the kind of certainty I'm talking about difficult to explain)...the difference between speaking about the beauty of the family, and seeing your first child born.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need to be Catholic?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:10 am 
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Which is why I didn't say, you need to fully understand. I can appreciate some potential confusion, but it's rather self-evident that someone raised in a religion as foreign to, and indeed as a corruption of, Christianity as Mormonism is, would need to go back and get some basic comprehension of what is being said and not said. Moreover, there is a large difference in being able to articulate the internal workings and coherency of doctrines and dogmas and being able to meaningfully recite the creeds. The former requires great study and insight. The latter requires only basic understanding. Both require faith and humility.

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