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 Post subject: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:55 pm 
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I am trying to learn about the Roman Catholic Church in some of my free time and one of the things I've noticed is that there are a lot of what God
labels as "graven images".

Exodus 20:4 KJV
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

I am wondering how the RCC makes peace/gets around with this key commandment that God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

Thank you
-Austin


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:59 pm 
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I have to be completely honest with you here, I'm not a big fan of the 'make sweeping accusations and try to disguise them as innocent questions' approach that you're taking here. Not a fan at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Hello Austin,

What are you reading to learn about our religion? The Catechism of the Catholic Church briefly treats graven images in nos. 2129 to 2132. You may also want to consult a good Scripture commentary such as Haydock's, which has a section on Exodus 20.

Note that a few chapters later, the Lord commands Moses to make graven (carved) images of angels on the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:18), and in Numbers 21:8, he commands him to make a graven image of a serpent. It's not the making of an image that is sinful, but the making of idols (i.e. images men use to pay homage to false gods).


Last edited by AdAltareDei on Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:29 pm 
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I'm assuming Exodus 35-38 is missing from your Bible.

Also, Catholics do not worship images.

And I agree with Doom. You're giving every appearance of being extremely disingenuous.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:37 pm 
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wait... is it lent already? :shock: :wave

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:44 pm 
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RIght?

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:51 pm 
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:yes: :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:59 am 
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AustinS wrote:
I am trying to learn about the Roman Catholic Church in some of my free time and one of the things I've noticed is that there are a lot of what God labels as "graven images"...

See -- The Council of Trent, The Twenty-Fifth Session: ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES, HERE.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:20 am 
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Doom wrote:
I have to be completely honest with you here, I'm not a big fan of the 'make sweeping accusations and try to disguise them as innocent questions' approach that you're taking here. Not a fan at all.



I think it's sort of cute, in a naive and unsophisticated manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:48 am 
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We're fans of statues so long as you don't worship them as if they're actual gods, like they did in the Old Testament.

Golden Calves= No.
Cherubim in Solomon's Temple= Love it!

We have many statues, but no Graven Images as described in Exodus, that would be idolatry.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:53 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm assuming Exodus 35-38 is missing from your Bible.

Also, Catholics do not worship images.

And I agree with Doom. You're giving every appearance of being extremely disingenuous.


I agree with Doom and Obi-Wan.

There is no "getting around" or "making peace" here. There is only reading the entirety of the book of Exodus IN CONTEXT, which shows that the prohibition against images in Exodus 20:4 is not absolute. Otherwise, God contradicts Himself, which we know is not possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:02 am 
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Speed Racer wrote:
There is no "getting around" or "making peace" here. There is only reading the entirety of the book of Exodus IN CONTEXT, which shows that the prohibition against images in Exodus 20:4 is not absolute. Otherwise, God contradicts Himself, which we know is not possible.


In fact, I've encountered many fundamentalist atheists, the kind who construct moronic lists of Bible 'contradictions' who make exactly that claim, that God contradicted himself in forbidding 'graven images' and then a few chapters later, commanding the construction of 'graven images.'

I like to use the term 'fundamentalist atheist', because it makes the point that there is a kind of parallel between the radical fundamentalist and the hardcore militant atheist, they both use the same methods to interpret the Bible, wrenching verses out of context, exaggerating at one point while suppressing at another point, using extreme 'either/or' reasoning etc. They just use these methods for opposite ends. Many militant atheists are former fundamentalists, fundamentalists who have not shed their ways at all, but merely adopted the same methods for the opposite goal.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:45 am 
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You don't need the whole book of Exodus to demonstrate that the prohibition against graven images wasn't absolute, and for methodological reasons I won't bore y'all with, I think it's a bad idea to use the whole book to make the claim. All you need is Exodus 20. Specifically, it's easy to note that the first few commands relate directly to one's relationship with God. We don't have another other God's before Him. We don't make graven images. We don't receive His name in vain. It's clear enough, at least to me, that the prohibition against graven images is directly related to how we worship God. My own theology on this point is that the reason we aren't to do so is that any such image draws us away from God's true nature, and that the closest real image you can get is the one God Himself created in humanity. So don't make God an angel or bird or beast or whatever. Just worship Him alone as He actually is (to the best of your ability to do so, of course, and rely on God's grace to commence, carry, and complete that little project).

Beyond that you can then point out the inconsistency of such misinterpreters of Scripture. If they are going to claim that Exod 20:4 is truly absolute, ask them about the nicknacks they have on their shelf. Ask them about their cross necklace. Ask them about any statute or any figurine or any picture of absolutely anything in their homes. Do they have a game of Monopoly? Then they have "graven images" of things "on the earth" in direct contradiction do their reading of the text. It's a silly position to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:58 am 
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I'm quite fond of my new graven image - Papa Smurf :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:02 am 
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theJack wrote:
You don't need the whole book of Exodus to demonstrate that the prohibition against graven images wasn't absolute, and for methodological reasons I won't bore y'all with, I think it's a bad idea to use the whole book to make the claim. All you need is Exodus 20. Specifically, it's easy to note that the first few commands relate directly to one's relationship with God. We don't have another other God's before Him. We don't make graven images. We don't receive His name in vain. It's clear enough, at least to me, that the prohibition against graven images is directly related to how we worship God. My own theology on this point is that the reason we aren't to do so is that any such image draws us away from God's true nature, and that the closest real image you can get is the one God Himself created in humanity. So don't make God an angel or bird or beast or whatever. Just worship Him alone as He actually is (to the best of your ability to do so, of course, and rely on God's grace to commence, carry, and complete that little project).

Beyond that you can then point out the inconsistency of such misinterpreters of Scripture. If they are going to claim that Exod 20:4 is truly absolute, ask them about the nicknacks they have on their shelf. Ask them about their cross necklace. Ask them about any statute or any figurine or any picture of absolutely anything in their homes. Do they have a game of Monopoly? Then they have "graven images" of things "on the earth" in direct contradiction do their reading of the text. It's a silly position to take.



Long ago, I asked some of the dears those sort of questions. The rest is silence.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:04 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
I'm quite fond of my new graven image - Papa Smurf :)



I gave my daughter a graven image (loosely construed) of Bubbles, from the Power Puff Girls.

I got a lot of graven images (more technically defined) of the Smurfs, in the attic. And some Green Army men.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:07 am 
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I challenge AustinS to approach a Muslim with the same question he has asked us Catholics. What I'd give to witness that.... ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:07 am 
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When I pass by the gorgeous nativity scenes outside of non-Catholic churches... and I see the shepherds and angels I think it is really cool that their statues are worshipping other statues!!

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:11 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Hello, what are Catholics opinion on graven images?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:15 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
I'm quite fond of my new graven image - Papa Smurf :)


:heart: :heart: :heart: :cloud9:

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