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 Post subject: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:40 am 
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Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit at his baptism. Why?
And, could Jesus proceed the Holy Spirit before his baptism?

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:46 am 
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One more:
Why is the Holy Spirit called upon during the Epiclesis to sanctify the consecrated bread and wine? To sanctify is to make holy; was Jesus less holy before?

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:53 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit at his baptism. Why?
And, could Jesus proceed the Holy Spirit before his baptism?



The baptism of John was not Christian baptism, there was no gift of the Holy Spirit with John's baptism. As he explained in the Gospel of John, the Holy Spirit did not come until after his death.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:24 am 
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I think your first question is answered in here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4039.htm#article6

The Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, and it's not a voluntary act.

The epiclesis occurs before the consecration, not after, at least in the Roman Rite.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:48 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think your first question is answered in here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4039.htm#article6

The Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, and it's not a voluntary act.

The epiclesis occurs before the consecration, not after, at least in the Roman Rite.

i) I will read that article.
iii) In some eucharistic prayers, there are 2 epicleses. A pre-consecration and a post-consecration. And Epicleses are post-consecration in Eastern liturgies. So I believe my question prevails.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:49 am 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit at his baptism. Why?
And, could Jesus proceed the Holy Spirit before his baptism?



The baptism of John was not Christian baptism, there was no gift of the Holy Spirit with John's baptism. As he explained in the Gospel of John, the Holy Spirit did not come until after his death.

Then who else descended on him a dove?
Of course, I believe that Jesus was not baptised with Christian baptism.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:22 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Then who else descended on him a dove?
Of course, I believe that Jesus was not baptised with Christian baptism.


But he didn't 'receive the Holy Spirit', the dove was simply a sign to John that Jesus was the Messiah.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:24 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think your first question is answered in here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4039.htm#article6

The link actually says that Holy Spirit really descended on Jesus, not the reasons for it. From the tone, I get something along the lines of "to set an example for Christians to be Baptised" or something to that effect. Are there any other reasons for it?

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:24 am 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Then who else descended on him a dove?
Of course, I believe that Jesus was not baptised with Christian baptism.


But he didn't 'receive the Holy Spirit', the dove was simply a sign to John that Jesus was the Messiah.

Please read the link Fr. Obi provided.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:42 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Then who else descended on him a dove?
Of course, I believe that Jesus was not baptised with Christian baptism.


But he didn't 'receive the Holy Spirit', the dove was simply a sign to John that Jesus was the Messiah.

Please read the link Fr. Obi provided.


All I did was just quote from the gospels, are you suggesting the gospels are wrong? The gospels clearly says that the dove was there as a sign....Jesus himself had the gift of the Holy Spirit from his conception, to try to pinpoint a moment when Jesus 'received the Holy Spirit' is technically an ancient heresy, known as 'adoptionism', not that I am calling you a heretic, I'm not, you're just asking a question, but there was no moment when Jesus received the Holy Spirit, he was perfectly holy, and enjoyed the beatific vision, from his conception.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:14 am 
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St. John Chrysostom: The Holy Spirit descended also upon Christ as upon the Founder of our race, that He might be in Christ first of all who received Him not for Himself, but rather for us. Hence it follows: And the Holy Spirit descended. Let not any one imagine that He received Him because He had Him not. For He as God sent Him from above, and as man received Him below. Therefore from Him the Spirit fled down to Him, i.e. from His deity to His humanity.

St. Augustine: But it is most strange that He should receive the Spirit when he was thirty years old. But as without sin He came to baptism, so not without the Holy Spirit. For if it was written of John, He shall be filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, what must we believe of the man Christ, the very conception of whose flesh was not carnal but spiritual. Therefore He condescended now to prefigure His body, i.e. the Church, in which the baptized especially receive the Holy Spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
St. John Chrysostom: The Holy Spirit descended also upon Christ as upon the Founder of our race, that He might be in Christ first of all who received Him not for Himself, but rather for us. Hence it follows: And the Holy Spirit descended. Let not any one imagine that He received Him because He had Him not. For He as God sent Him from above, and as man received Him below. Therefore from Him the Spirit fled down to Him, i.e. from His deity to His humanity.

St. Augustine: But it is most strange that He should receive the Spirit when he was thirty years old. But as without sin He came to baptism, so not without the Holy Spirit. For if it was written of John, He shall be filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, what must we believe of the man Christ, the very conception of whose flesh was not carnal but spiritual. Therefore He condescended now to prefigure His body, i.e. the Church, in which the baptized especially receive the Holy Spirit.


But those quotations confirm that he did receive the Holy Spirit in a new way in which he did not already have the Holy Spirit, which is precisely my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:19 pm 
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But not in a way that implies He was lacking the Spirit before.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:19 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Then who else descended on him a dove?
Of course, I believe that Jesus was not baptised with Christian baptism.


But he didn't 'receive the Holy Spirit', the dove was simply a sign to John that Jesus was the Messiah.

Please read the link Fr. Obi provided.


All I did was just quote from the gospels, are you suggesting the gospels are wrong? The gospels clearly says that the dove was there as a sign....Jesus himself had the gift of the Holy Spirit from his conception, to try to pinpoint a moment when Jesus 'received the Holy Spirit' is technically an ancient heresy, known as 'adoptionism', not that I am calling you a heretic, I'm not, you're just asking a question, but there was no moment when Jesus received the Holy Spirit, he was perfectly holy, and enjoyed the beatific vision, from his conception.


That something is a sign does not mean that it is not real, and to receive something does not mean that one did not already have it. There are other places in Scripture where it speaks of people receiving the Spirit who already had it. Don't you think you are being needlessly contrarian?


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:03 pm 
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Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. (John 1:32)

....he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.(Matthew 3:16)

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove...(Luke 3:32)

...he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. (Mark 1:10)

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:12 pm 
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Doom wrote:
All I did was just quote from the gospels,
The gospels clearly says that the dove was there as a sign....
Which Gospel, which chapter, which verse?
Quote:
are you suggesting the gospels are wrong?
I would never do that.
Quote:
Jesus himself had the gift of the Holy Spirit from his conception,
I do not deny that.
Quote:
to try to pinpoint a moment when Jesus 'received the Holy Spirit' is technically an ancient heresy, known as 'adoptionism',
Adoptionists are monarchian. They claim that Jesus was created. I am not sure, but I think they reject his divinity. My beliefs, taught to my ancestors by St. Thomas the Apostle ('Mar w'Alaha', My Lord and my God), drastically contrast adoptionism. (not that you called me one.)

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:12 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
One more:
Why is the Holy Spirit called upon during the Epiclesis to sanctify the consecrated bread and wine? To sanctify is to make holy; was Jesus less holy before?

Somebody?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:57 am 
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In the Roman Rite, the epiclesis always occurs before the consecration. Are there rites in which that is not the case?

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:46 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In the Roman Rite, the epiclesis always occurs before the consecration. Are there rites in which that is not the case?

In all Eastern Rites, the Epiclesis occurs after the consecration (if there is one) and anamnesis.

Epiclesis from the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari:
Quote:
We too, my Lord, your feeble, unworthy, and miserable servants who are gathered in your name and stand before you at this hour, and have received by tradition the example which is from you, while rejoicing, glorifying, exalting, and commemorating, perform this great, fearful, holy, life-giving, and divine Mystery of the passion, death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
And may there come, O my Lord, your Holy Spirit, and may he rest upon this oblation of your servants. May he bless it and hallow it, and may it be for us, O my Lord, for the pardon of debts, the forgiveness of sins, the great hope of resurrection from the dead, and for new life in the kingdom of heaven with all who have been well-pleasing before you. And for all this great and marvelous dispensation towards us we will give thanks to you and praise you without ceasing in your Church, which is saved by the precious blood of your Christ.


Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. James:
Quote:
Priest (aloud): Thy people and Thy Church entreat Thee. (thrice)

People: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. (thrice)

The Priest, in a low voice: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with Thy great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, Thine all-holy Spirit, (bowing) the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with Thee, God and Father, and Thine only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by Thy New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon Thy holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Thy same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth,
(aloud): that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, He may sanctify this bread and make it the holy Body of Christ,
People: Amen.
Priest: and this Cup (chalice) the precious Blood of Christ,
People: Amen.

The Priest signs the holy Gifts and says in a low voice: that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of Thy holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Thou didst found on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age.


Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:
Quote:
Priest: Again we offer to Thee this spiritual and bloodless worship; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.
(Deacon [pointing with his orarion to the diskos]: Bless, Master, the Holy Bread.)[6]
Priest: Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,
(Deacon [pointing to the chalice]: Amen. Bless, Master, the Holy Cup.)
Priest: And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,
(Deacon [pointing to both]: Amen. Bless them both, Master.)
Priest: Changing by Thy Holy Spirit.
(Deacon: Amen, Amen, Amen.)


Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. Basil:
Quote:
Priest: Therefore, O Most-holy Master we sinners and Thine unworthy servants also, having been vouchsafed to minister at Thy holy Altar, not because of our righteousness, for we have not done that which is good on the earth, but because of Thy mercies and Thy compassions, which Thou hast poured out richly upon us, dare to draw nigh unto Thy holy Altar; and having presented the sacred emblems of the Body and Blood of Thy Christ, we pray Thee, and we call upon Thee: O Holy of Holies, through the favour of Thy goodness send Thy Holy Spirit down upon us, and upon these Gifts presented here, and bless them, sanctify, and manifest them.
(Deacon [pointing with his orarion to the diskos]: Bless, Master, the Holy Bread.)
Priest: And make this Bread itself the precious Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
(Deacon [pointing to the chalice: Amen. Bless, Master, the Holy Cup.)
Priest: And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood itself of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
(Deacon [pointing to both]: Amen. Bless them both, Master.)

Priest: Which was shed for the life of the world, and for its salvation.
(Deacon: Amen, Amen, Amen.)

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Jesus get the Holy Spirit?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:50 am 
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The implicit epiclesis in the Roman Canon is said to be Quam oblationem.
Quote:
Be pleased, O God, we pray,
to bless, acknowledge,
and approve this offering in every respect;
make it spiritual and acceptable,
so that it may become for us
the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some scholars are of the opinion that the epiclesis is the prayer Supplices te rogamus, which, like the explicit epicleses in the Eastern Rites, is placed after the consecration and anamnesis:
Quote:
In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God:
command that these gifts be borne
by the hands of your holy Angel
to your altar on high
in the sight of your divine majesty,
so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar
receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son,
may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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