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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Doom wrote:
In all seriousness, you know less than nothing about my background and experience amd you are making vast, massive presumptions about me which are not only way off but which are based on which are based on absolutely nothing except your own prejudices.

There is a world of difference between 'fundamentalists' and 'mainline Protestants' like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians or whatnot....and people who are halfway knowledgeable about Christianity are not at all likely to be confused as to the difference. And even though fundamentalism and evangelicalism have made big advances in recent decades it is still true that the vast majority of professed Protestants belong to one of the mainline denominations, and not a fundamentalist denomination.

Well, you must be right, Doom. I bow to your superior knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Doom wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
well istm that if you are not in the Catholic Church, you are protesting something



Nonsense, the vast majority of Protestants are not 'protesting' anything....they are Protestants because that is how they were brought up and they have never even considered the Catholic Church or been confronted with her....you might as well say that all Christians are 'protesting' Judaism...they aren't Protestant because they hate the Catholic Church.



and notice nowhere did i say protestants hate the Catholic Church... let me be a little more clear...they are protestant because whether they know it or not, they are "protesting" something since they do not agree with or accept the teaching of our Lord's Church

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Doom, before I converted, I was a fundamentalist too, and doggone proud of it. Yes, you're right about a lot of what fundamentalists believe, but it's not nearly half as clinical as you make it out to be. I never knew about the existence of a book called "Fundamentalism" written in 1910, or any other year for that matter. My pastors have ranged from simple country preachers to a very learned (and highly-degreed) Messianic Jew. All fundamentalists, and none ever mentioned this book. I'm not saying this book doesn't exist, nor that it doesn't have a place in the history of the fundamentalist movement. I'm just saying that it's a lot more obscure than you suggest.

The short, sweet, and simple definition of fundamentalism is that they believe the Bible IN ITS ORIGINAL WRITING to be the inerrant Word of God. The possibility exists that as the Scriptures were transcribed, translated, and copied that man-made error was inserted into it, but acknowledges that those errors are few and far between, and offer some explanation as to certain "difficulties" in the Bible.

The basic principles and beliefs of fundamentalism are as you described them, Doom. I still don't believe in evolution and still believe in a young earth, and am glad that the Catechism allows for that belief.

You're absolutely right in that not all protestants are fundamentalists; far from it. Most protestants aren't. OBTW, LOVED your casserole joke! :laughhard

What really bothers me are those who claim that Catholics aren't Christian. That even bothered me when I wasn't yet desiring to become Catholic.

Now let's stop quibbling before Milby thinks we are all too similar to the Baptists!

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:45 pm 
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From a lifetime of being surrounded by Baptists, and for a while, being one myself:

Six men are shipwrecked on a deserted island. The two Catholics go off and found the Church of the Sacred Heart. The two Jews go off and form the Temple Beth Israel. The two Baptists go to the far side and form the First and Second Baptist Churches.

The difference between a Northern Baptist preacher and a Southern Baptist preacher? The Northern Baptist preacher will say "There ain't no hell." The Southern Baptist preacher will say "The hell there ain't!"

The results of the last Ecumenical Conference are in: Catholics can eat meat on Friday, Jews can eat pork, and Baptists can drink in front of each other.

Don't worry--I've got one for just about any faith tradition.....just you wait! :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:47 pm 
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mea wrote:
Doom wrote:
In all seriousness, you know less than nothing about my background and experience amd you are making vast, massive presumptions about me which are not only way off but which are based on which are based on absolutely nothing except your own prejudices.

There is a world of difference between 'fundamentalists' and 'mainline Protestants' like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians or whatnot....and people who are halfway knowledgeable about Christianity are not at all likely to be confused as to the difference. And even though fundamentalism and evangelicalism have made big advances in recent decades it is still true that the vast majority of professed Protestants belong to one of the mainline denominations, and not a fundamentalist denomination.

Well, you must be right, Doom. I bow to your superior knowledge.


It has become clear over the last couple years of our interaction that you have a deep hostility and personal animosity towards me which makes it simply impossible for you to actually listen to anything I am trying to say about anything, indeed, your personal dislike of me is so strong that you will never be able to respond to anything I say with anything other than hostility, derision, resentment and contempt.

If I said the sky was blue you would scream that this was evidence that I am a bigot, a fanatic and a jerk. There ain't nothing I can do about that and I am not going to attempt to try to combat it any further.

For this reason, I officially give up and I will not attempt to converse with you any further, and am putting you on my ignore list. Given the way that I am obviously a very major occasion of sin for you, it would be wise for you to respond in kind.

Have a good life, goodbye.

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:54 pm 
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ghall512 wrote:
Doom, before I converted, I was a fundamentalist too, and doggone proud of it. Yes, you're right about a lot of what fundamentalists believe, but it's not nearly half as clinical as you make it out to be. I never knew about the existence of a book called "Fundamentalism" written in 1910, or any other year for that matter. My pastors have ranged from simple country preachers to a very learned (and highly-degreed) Messianic Jew. All fundamentalists, and none ever mentioned this book. I'm not saying this book doesn't exist, nor that it doesn't have a place in the history of the fundamentalist movement. I'm just saying that it's a lot more obscure than you suggest.

The short, sweet, and simple definition of fundamentalism is that they believe the Bible IN ITS ORIGINAL WRITING to be the inerrant Word of God. The possibility exists that as the Scriptures were transcribed, translated, and copied that man-made error was inserted into it, but acknowledges that those errors are few and far between, and offer some explanation as to certain "difficulties" in the Bible.

The basic principles and beliefs of fundamentalism are as you described them, Doom. I still don't believe in evolution and still believe in a young earth, and am glad that the Catechism allows for that belief.

You're absolutely right in that not all protestants are fundamentalists; far from it. Most protestants aren't. OBTW, LOVED your casserole joke! :laughhard

What really bothers me are those who claim that Catholics aren't Christian. That even bothered me when I wasn't yet desiring to become Catholic.

Now let's stop quibbling before Milby thinks we are all too similar to the Baptists!


beat me to it ghall...must be that "force thingie" :mrgreen: ... since this is milby's first foray to the board and it IS Cath 101 perhaps we should focus on his original question, which has been answered pretty well, and let him come back and guide the bus... just a thought :wink: :wave

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Doom wrote:
It has become clear over the last couple years of our interaction that you have a deep hostility and personal animosity towards me which makes it simply impossible for you to actually listen to anything I am trying to say about anything, indeed, your personal dislike of me is so strong that you will never be able to respond to anything I say with anything other than hostility, derision, resentment and contempt.

If I said the sky was blue you would scream that this was evidence that I am a bigot, a fanatic and a jerk. There ain't nothing I can do about that and I am not going to attempt to try to combat it any further.

For this reason, I officially give up and I will not attempt to converse with you any further, and am putting you on my ignore list. Given the way that I am obviously a very major occasion of sin for you, it would be wise for you to respond in kind.

Have a good life, goodbye.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Doom.


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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:53 pm 
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ghall512 wrote:
Doom, before I converted, I was a fundamentalist too, and doggone proud of it. Yes, you're right about a lot of what fundamentalists believe, but it's not nearly half as clinical as you make it out to be. I never knew about the existence of a book called "Fundamentalism" written in 1910, or any other year for that matter. My pastors have ranged from simple country preachers to a very learned (and highly-degreed) Messianic Jew. All fundamentalists, and none ever mentioned this book. I'm not saying this book doesn't exist, nor that it doesn't have a place in the history of the fundamentalist movement. I'm just saying that it's a lot more obscure than you suggest.

The short, sweet, and simple definition of fundamentalism is that they believe the Bible IN ITS ORIGINAL WRITING to be the inerrant Word of God. The possibility exists that as the Scriptures were transcribed, translated, and copied that man-made error was inserted into it, but acknowledges that those errors are few and far between, and offer some explanation as to certain "difficulties" in the Bible.

The basic principles and beliefs of fundamentalism are as you described them, Doom. I still don't believe in evolution and still believe in a young earth, and am glad that the Catechism allows for that belief.

You're absolutely right in that not all protestants are fundamentalists; far from it. Most protestants aren't. OBTW, LOVED your casserole joke! :laughhard

What really bothers me are those who claim that Catholics aren't Christian. That even bothered me when I wasn't yet desiring to become Catholic.

Now let's stop quibbling before Milby thinks we are all too similar to the Baptists!


It is not one book but a series of 12 books called 'The Fundamentals'....published around the turn of the last century, these books did not 'invent' or create fundamentalism but merely summarized the principles of a movement which had started in the 1880's-1890's as a response to liberalizing trends within mainline Protestantism and fundamentalism was already in force by the time the books were published.

But the books were highly influential and gave a name to the movement....when an editorial in the liberal Protestant publication 'The Christian Century' entitled 'Shall the fundamentalists win?' the movement had an official name.

The books, by the way, have never been out of print, and are easy enough to obtain at just about any Christian book store...and is widely available online.

By the way, it is a myth that fundamentalists are just a bunch of inbred backwoods hicks with extreme right wing political views...

In fact, the authors of 'The Fundamentals' were highly educated and very knowledgeable about a great many things, one of them was an Egyptologist.

And they weren't politically conservative either, but founded the 'Progressive' movement, one of the early fundamentalist leaders was William Jennings Brian, who famously ran for, and lost, the presidency three times and served as Secretary of State under Woodrow Wilson. By today's standards they would be considered liberals.

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:08 pm 
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bryan resigned shortly before wilson reacted to germany's submarine policy and decided to get involved in the wwi conflict... did not know that was what the lusitania was all about...and that 128 americans had died in that ship sinking

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Doom wrote:
mea wrote:
I can assure you that the vast majority of non-Catholic Christians would have a hard time discerning the difference between "Protestant" and "fundamentalist." I can say this because I was there, active and involved, from 1974 to 2010. What are your credentials? :)


Huh? I need credentials to know what a 'fundamentalist' is?

A fundamentalist is someone who follows 'the fundamentals' as laid in the 12 volume series of books published in the 1910's called, wait for it...'The Fundamentals'. Fundamentalism is a specific movement made up of specific individuals which has an origin in a specific place and time just a little more than 100 years ago.

Fundamentalism is not 'Biblical Christianity', or 'historic Christianity' or 'what Christians have always believed' but refers to a specific set of beliefs that originated a little more than 100 years ago.

Among the principles of fundamentalism are:

opposition to evolution, and possibly the advocacy of young Earth creationism

belief in a rather extreme version of 'sola scriptura' and the 'perspicacity of scripture'

Belief in a fairly extreme version of 'sola fide' which includes a belief in 'once saved always saved'

anti-Catholicism including the belief that the Pope is antichrist and often accompanied by elaborate conspiracy theories that Catholicism was 'stolen from paganism'

A complete denial of any kind of sacramentalism, including holding a purely symbolic view of the sacraments

rejection of infant baptism

etc etc etc

Fundamentalism is a very specific collection of beliefs, and is not just a generic catch all term for 'anything I happen to dislike' (even though that is how it is often used)


To most atheists and secularists anyone who believes in the existence of God is a 'fundamentalist', they even call Jews and Muslims 'fundamentalists', which is ridiculous.

That some people are idiots does not mean that the word 'fundamentalist' is without meaning, it isn't.


I must also point out that many Pentecostal movements are hostile to fundamentalism since they consider themselves to be receiving ongoing revelations from the Holy Spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:20 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
bryan resigned shortly before wilson reacted to germany's submarine policy and decided to get involved in the wwi conflict... did not know that was what the lusitania was all about...and that 128 americans had died in that ship sinking


Bryan was a pacifist, his opposition to war and the use of force was absolute, he opposed a declaration of war under any circumstances, even if America is directly attacked. He died before Pearl Harbor, but if he had been alive he almost certainly would have opposed American entry into the war even then.

Which again just shows that the early fundamentalists were not politically conservative.

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:21 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
Doom wrote:
mea wrote:
I can assure you that the vast majority of non-Catholic Christians would have a hard time discerning the difference between "Protestant" and "fundamentalist." I can say this because I was there, active and involved, from 1974 to 2010. What are your credentials? :)


Huh? I need credentials to know what a 'fundamentalist' is?

A fundamentalist is someone who follows 'the fundamentals' as laid in the 12 volume series of books published in the 1910's called, wait for it...'The Fundamentals'. Fundamentalism is a specific movement made up of specific individuals which has an origin in a specific place and time just a little more than 100 years ago.

Fundamentalism is not 'Biblical Christianity', or 'historic Christianity' or 'what Christians have always believed' but refers to a specific set of beliefs that originated a little more than 100 years ago.

Among the principles of fundamentalism are:

opposition to evolution, and possibly the advocacy of young Earth creationism

belief in a rather extreme version of 'sola scriptura' and the 'perspicacity of scripture'

Belief in a fairly extreme version of 'sola fide' which includes a belief in 'once saved always saved'

anti-Catholicism including the belief that the Pope is antichrist and often accompanied by elaborate conspiracy theories that Catholicism was 'stolen from paganism'

A complete denial of any kind of sacramentalism, including holding a purely symbolic view of the sacraments

rejection of infant baptism

etc etc etc

Fundamentalism is a very specific collection of beliefs, and is not just a generic catch all term for 'anything I happen to dislike' (even though that is how it is often used)


To most atheists and secularists anyone who believes in the existence of God is a 'fundamentalist', they even call Jews and Muslims 'fundamentalists', which is ridiculous.

That some people are idiots does not mean that the word 'fundamentalist' is without meaning, it isn't.


I must also point out that many Pentecostal movements are hostile to fundamentalism since they consider themselves to be receiving ongoing revelations from the Holy Spirit.



Oh yeah, Pentecostalism is definitely a distinct movement from fundamentalism, although there is sometimes so overlap.

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:39 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
bryan resigned shortly before wilson reacted to Germany's submarine policy and decided to get involved in the wwi conflict... did not know that was what the lusitania was all about...and that 128 americans had died in that ship sinking


America stayed out of the war for about 2 more years, following the Germans' assurance that they would not sink merchant ships without warnings, but would use "cruiser" tactics, surfacing and forcing crews of hostile cargo ships to abandon ship, before sinking the vessel. This was changed early in 1917, to a resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare (Germany was in dire straits, due to the British blockade). This in turn (along with the Zimmerman telegram) brought the US into the war, roughly 2 months later.


GKC

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Doom wrote:
ghall512 wrote:
Doom, before I converted, I was a fundamentalist too, and doggone proud of it. Yes, you're right about a lot of what fundamentalists believe, but it's not nearly half as clinical as you make it out to be. I never knew about the existence of a book called "Fundamentalism" written in 1910, or any other year for that matter. My pastors have ranged from simple country preachers to a very learned (and highly-degreed) Messianic Jew. All fundamentalists, and none ever mentioned this book. I'm not saying this book doesn't exist, nor that it doesn't have a place in the history of the fundamentalist movement. I'm just saying that it's a lot more obscure than you suggest.

The short, sweet, and simple definition of fundamentalism is that they believe the Bible IN ITS ORIGINAL WRITING to be the inerrant Word of God. The possibility exists that as the Scriptures were transcribed, translated, and copied that man-made error was inserted into it, but acknowledges that those errors are few and far between, and offer some explanation as to certain "difficulties" in the Bible.

The basic principles and beliefs of fundamentalism are as you described them, Doom. I still don't believe in evolution and still believe in a young earth, and am glad that the Catechism allows for that belief.

You're absolutely right in that not all protestants are fundamentalists; far from it. Most protestants aren't. OBTW, LOVED your casserole joke! :laughhard

What really bothers me are those who claim that Catholics aren't Christian. That even bothered me when I wasn't yet desiring to become Catholic.

Now let's stop quibbling before Milby thinks we are all too similar to the Baptists!


It is not one book but a series of 12 books called 'The Fundamentals'....published around the turn of the last century, these books did not 'invent' or create fundamentalism but merely summarized the principles of a movement which had started in the 1880's-1890's as a response to liberalizing trends within mainline Protestantism and fundamentalism was already in force by the time the books were published.

But the books were highly influential and gave a name to the movement....when an editorial in the liberal Protestant publication 'The Christian Century' entitled 'Shall the fundamentalists win?' the movement had an official name.

The books, by the way, have never been out of print, and are easy enough to obtain at just about any Christian book store...and is widely available online.

By the way, it is a myth that fundamentalists are just a bunch of inbred backwoods hicks with extreme right wing political views...

In fact, the authors of 'The Fundamentals' were highly educated and very knowledgeable about a great many things, one of them was an Egyptologist.

And they weren't politically conservative either, but founded the 'Progressive' movement, one of the early fundamentalist leaders was William Jennings Brian, who famously ran for, and lost, the presidency three times and served as Secretary of State under Woodrow Wilson. By today's standards they would be considered liberals.



It was associated with the Princeton Theological Seminary, and had a Presbyterian origin.

GKC

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:53 pm 
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GKC wrote:
It was associated with the Princeton Theological Seminary, and had a Presbyterian origin.

GKC




Yes, hence, before the term 'fundamentalism' was coined, it was often called 'Princeton theology', and much of fundamentalist theology, such as the anti-sacramentalism, would be considered quite Calvinist.

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:58 pm 
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ghall512 wrote:
Welcome, Milby!

I was once a Southern Baptist myself, but I happily crossed the Tiber this Easter. Mine was a long but very fulfilling journey. Ask away--I probably won't have all the answers, but the folks here are knowledgeable and eager to help seekers. I'll be glad to chat with you. :wave


This is probably a stupid question but I keep hearing references to "crossing the Tiber". What is the Tiber?

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:06 pm 
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milby wrote:
ghall512 wrote:
Welcome, Milby!

I was once a Southern Baptist myself, but I happily crossed the Tiber this Easter. Mine was a long but very fulfilling journey. Ask away--I probably won't have all the answers, but the folks here are knowledgeable and eager to help seekers. I'll be glad to chat with you. :wave


This is probably a stupid question but I keep hearing references to "crossing the Tiber". What is the Tiber?

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Hence, to cross the Tiber, is to convert to Catholicism, "cross over to Rome".

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:06 pm 
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The Tiber river flows through the heart of Rome. To "cross the Tiber" means to convert to Catholicism. We also refer to being members of the Tiber Swim Team, class of XXXX (I'm class of 2012). That refers to the year we came into full communion with the Church. :D

Don't worry, Milby. There are no dumb questions from those seeking knowledge. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:18 pm 
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There are no stupid questions, there are stupid people who ask questions.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: seeking the truth
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Doom wrote:
There are no stupid questions, there are stupid people who ask questions.... :mrgreen:


Why, Doom, that's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me...you flatterer, you! :rose:

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