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At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?
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Author:  liseux [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

My kids have been REALLY good at what they have given up and almsgiving. But... they do want to know at what time they can ease up tomorrow. I wasn't sure....

Anyone know?

God bless, Liseux

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Good Friday is a fast day anyhow. I would tell them at the stroke of midnight on Friday/Saturday.

Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Or better after the Easter Vigil. I don't understand why they redefined things, but traditional the Lenten Fast goes until Easter itself, Lent ending with Holy Saturday. I would still treat Holy Saturday as a penitential day

Author:  liseux [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Our parish has a Holy Thursday gathering, with a bar-b-qued lamb, salad, German potatoes, and much more. Is it okay to break the Lenten fast for this?

God bless, Liseux

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

I would call that a special event and go ahead with it.

Author:  liseux [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Thank, Obi. And may the force (the Holy Trinity) be with you!

Liseux

Author:  Peetem [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Wait - am I supposed to fast today too?

Author:  faithfulservant [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

no...lisieux was only speaking to the things that were given up for lent :fyi:

but you can certainly fast if you want to 8-)

Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

The obligation to observe the Lenten fast was abolished in 1966. But the Lenten fast would include today, as well as Holy Saturday. One fasted Mondary through Saturday, and prior to the 20th century (ignoring various dispensations) abstained from meat, milk, butter, eggs, etc even on Sunday. Not only was the obligation to fast for exactly 40days abolished, Lent was redefined so that the Triduum is counted as something sui generis, as distinct.

Author:  Learner [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Peetem wrote:
Wait - am I supposed to fast today too?


Only if you were born on a day of the week ending in "y".

:D

Author:  Edward Pothier [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Learner wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Wait - am I supposed to fast today too?


Only if you were born on a day of the week ending in "y".

:D
OK, I'll see your wiseguy comment and raise you another!

What if you were born in a non-English speaking country?


Edward Pothier

Author:  Edward Pothier [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Good Friday is a fast day anyhow. I would tell them at the stroke of midnight on Friday/Saturday.
In the following I am not trying to be a complete wisea$$ (maybe a partial one?), but I do not know the answer (and could not find a quick source to check) to the following question (in canon and/or liturgical law):
Does the Catholic Church compute time, e.g. for the start of a day, using Standard Time or Daylight Saving Time (if that is in effect civilly in the location)?

I know that a day goes from midnight to midnight, but which "midnight"? I would like to think (if it makes any difference) that we would use whatever civil time is in effect. Unless the Church wants to consider DST as a modernist abomination!


Edward Pothier

Author:  Pro Ecclesia Dei [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Edward Pothier wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Good Friday is a fast day anyhow. I would tell them at the stroke of midnight on Friday/Saturday.
In the following I am not trying to be a complete wisea$$ (maybe a partial one?), but I do not know the answer (and could not find a quick source to check) to the following question (in canon and/or liturgical law):
Does the Catholic Church compute time, e.g. for the start of a day, using Standard Time or Daylight Saving Time (if that is in effect civilly in the location)?

I know that a day goes from midnight to midnight, but which "midnight"? I would like to think (if it makes any difference) that we would use whatever civil time is in effect. Unless the Church wants to consider DST as a modernist abomination!


Edward Pothier

According to Jone, one may reckon midnight using whatever he customarily uses to reckon time. In other words, a farmer could legitimately observe natural midnight, ignoring both day light "saving time" and time zones. Jone even gives a chart for calculating this!. But this presumes that is what he in fact reckons for time, and not merely because it is in his favor for fasting! (for that matter you couldn't start with natural midnight, which say is 1:15 with daylight savings time, and then use standard time with it to end the day, say what would be 10:45 natural time)

In short, whatever is customary for you to use.

Author:  weunice [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

So if I am a weather nerd and have gotten used to UTC time does that cut me some slack *joking* (0037Z as of this post)

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

DST is a modernist abomination. :fyi:

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Now I'm confused:

Quote:
Can. 202 §1 In law, a day is understood to be a space of twenty-four hours, to be reckoned continuously and, unless expressly provided otherwise, it begins at midnight; a week is a space of seven days - a month is a space of thirty days, and a year a space of three hundred and sixty-five days, unless it is stated that the month and the year are to be taken as in the calendar.
(Bold face mine.) So what happens on days when daylight savings goes into effect and when it goes away? When the day is only 23 hours long, does the canonical day involved stretch to 1 a.m. of the following day, overlapping with it? And when the day is 25 hours long, is there an hour in the day that doesn't belong anywhere canonically?

Author:  Edward Pothier [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Now I'm confused:

Quote:
Can. 202 §1 In law, a day is understood to be a space of twenty-four hours, to be reckoned continuously and, unless expressly provided otherwise, it begins at midnight; a week is a space of seven days - a month is a space of thirty days, and a year a space of three hundred and sixty-five days, unless it is stated that the month and the year are to be taken as in the calendar.
(Bold face mine.) So what happens on days when daylight savings goes into effect and when it goes away? When the day is only 23 hours long, does the canonical day involved stretch to 1 a.m. of the following day, overlapping with it? And when the day is 25 hours long, is there an hour in the day that doesn't belong anywhere canonically?
That canon and a few right around it were where I looked before throwing the question of DST out to this board!

If you solve the 23 hour and 25 hour days (which do average out OK), you are still left with an apparently insolvable problem of the occasional leap seconds which are sometimes inserted (all in the same direction). Due to slight slowing of the earth's motion there is a need (due to the use of extremely accurate atomic clocks) to add an extra second to keep timekeeping accurate. Every few years the international agencies agree to add a second, usually as December 31 flips over to January 1. The time goes 11:59:58PM, 11:59:59PM, 11:59:60PM, 12:00:00AM.

Don't you just hate having to set all your clocks and watches back that second; and on New Years Eve or Day too!


Edward Pothier
P.S. The above quoted Canon 200 of the current Code does mention exceptions which follow the calendar, but the "defining" in law of a month as a space of thirty days, and ESPECIALLY a year as a space of three hundred and sixty-five days must have the Pope Gregory (of the Gregorian Calendar) spinning in his grave.

Author:  Learner [ Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Now I'm confused:

Quote:
Can. 202 §1 In law, a day is understood to be a space of twenty-four hours, to be reckoned continuously and, unless expressly provided otherwise, it begins at midnight; a week is a space of seven days - a month is a space of thirty days, and a year a space of three hundred and sixty-five days, unless it is stated that the month and the year are to be taken as in the calendar.
(Bold face mine.) So what happens on days when daylight savings goes into effect and when it goes away? When the day is only 23 hours long, does the canonical day involved stretch to 1 a.m. of the following day, overlapping with it? And when the day is 25 hours long, is there an hour in the day that doesn't belong anywhere canonically?


Would the "unless expressly provided otherwise" cover the change to and from DST?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

No, because the place where the expressly providing has to happen is in the code itself or in an official explanation of it. I think.

Author:  Learner [ Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what hour does Lenten fast end tomorrow?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
No, because the place where the expressly providing has to happen is in the code itself or in an official explanation of it. I think.



Well, then for the 25-hour "day", I guess we must spend one hour in Limbo.

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