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UFO's
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Author:  Xavier [ Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  UFO's

I came across a fascinating book about UFOs. It is different from others I read as a young person, in that the contributors have noteworthy credentials, including retired generals, fighter pilots, and directors of government laboratories. It is not easy to dismiss the evidence given the sources.

http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Whether or not any of these UFOs represent alien intelligences, I am wrestling with a number of questions and am wondering if any Catholic writers (or the Vatican) have put this possibility of alien life into perspective:

For instance, should we not take seriously the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people who claim to have seen aircraft that performed well beyond our own technology, especially the testimony of credible observers? I think as Christians, we must. We are willing to accept the testimony of people who also claim to have witnessed incredible events (namely the life and miracles of Jesus, and his apostles). Those witnesses have been gone for thousands of years and yet we trust them completely. In fairness, should we not also apply the same open-mindedness to other amazing phenomena that are also witnessed by people in our day? Particularly when it is corrobarated by multiple witnesses, and even technical equipment such as radar returns?

I also wonder about the implications of intelligent, alien life for the faith. God took the form of a human, and continues to occupy that form in Heaven. Does that mean the aliens would also be obliged to worship a human-like God? Or could God shed his human form and take on an alien form if needed to deliver them from sin, too? And what about the universe itself. If the universe changed because of Adam’s Fall, does that mean the universe changed for the aliens, too, even though they probably lived extreme distances away? I’m sure there are other implications that I’m not considering.

Thanks

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

As far as aliens go--St. Thomas believed it was possible for the Son to be incarnate multiple times: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4003.htm#article7

While he refers to human nature only, I believe his remarks would apply to anything that can be called a rational animal.

As far as credibility of witnesses goes--the Christian witness included witnessing to Christ's own explanation of who and what He is. Observers of UFOs provide their own explanations; the events do not explain themselves.

I was a UFO nut many years ago, but I have reluctantly swung to belief that, whatever it is that people are seeing, it isn't alien spacecraft.

Author:  Xavier [ Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I was a UFO nut many years ago, but I have reluctantly swung to belief that, whatever it is that people are seeing, it isn't alien spacecraft.


Why do you now think it is not alien spacecraft people are seeing?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

I don't think the government (any government) is capable of maintaining that kind of secrecy for that long. =

Author:  beng [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
As far as aliens go--St. Thomas believed it was possible for the Son to be incarnate multiple times: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4003.htm#article7


    Whatever the Father can do, that also can the Son do. But after Incarnation the Father can still assume a human nature distinct from that which the Son has assumed - St. Thomas

What the...?!? When did the Father assume a human nature distinct from the Son? Do we have two Incarnated persons?

Quote:
I was a UFO nut many years ago, but I have reluctantly swung to belief that, whatever it is that people are seeing, it isn't alien spacecraft.


Veggie bot?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

The Father didn't assume a human nature, but He could have. See Article 5 on that same page.

Author:  Servant of Guadalupe [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

I have put an insane number of hours into studying UFOs. I once saw a UFO. I think that it is extremely improbable that they are craft from another intelligent race. Now, the way in which they move is consistent with theories of how gravity modification should work. NASA does have some articles concerning this. Gravity modification tech would theoretically allow you to travel something like 2/10 the speed of light, putting other solar systems too far out, still, to travel back and forth from. I think that there are other ideas that could be. These are the possibilities as I see them:

1- They are an ancient civilization of humans that remain hidden to us. There are some very interesting ancient writings from India that describe flying machines made by their people. These ancient writings describe what sounds like nuclear warfare, down to the after-affects to people that survive in the vicinity of an attack, and so forth.

2- Extra-terrestrial beings with a mother-ship(s) equipped with a closed ecology system, equipped with many smaller vehicles. I would imagine such a ship would then be from a now dead planet, as I would imagine it to be a last ditch effort to survive as a race. Such a ship would need to be a multi-generational endeavor.

3- They are actually demonic in nature, and may be used to destroy our belief in God, or in Christianity. One of the "major" alien races "seen" by people that claim to have seen ET beings is reptilian. The angels called seraphim are described as serpentine, that is what their name means. Another "major" ET race is the "inter-dimensional ET." That would be a spirit. There are some of the more, how do you say, "reliable" (cough, cough), groups like the people from the Disclosure Project that offer trips to search out UFOs, and promise an encounter with one of these ET inter-dimensional beings. I actually believe they are legit. Really. Not kidding. After all, demons are ET inter-dimensional beings. All angels are for that matter.

4- It is our governments. The US government and independent companies have been working on gravity modification since the 1930's, and the research in companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin are ongoing on this subject.

These are all just ideas that have floated through my head….

Author:  Servant of Guadalupe [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

NASA, less than a year ago, had quite a few articles concerning "anti-gravity" on their website that is no longer their. They were fascinating reads. The website has now demonised the term. Probably because the term is way to loaded. The articles were great though… Oh well...

Author:  Lisa1515 [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

When I was a kid there were lots and lots of sightings and talk about Area 51. The conspiracy theories abounded. I'm sure some still believe there is an alien craft there. As Fr said, the government couldn't possibly keep a secret that long and it hasn't. We now know that Area 51 was a military base and was a place where aircraft were tested. If I'm not mistaken, the Stealth was tested out there. Information about Area 51 is now available. I wonder if we look back at the aircrafts that were being tested and compare them with UFO reports, we might just find that they coincide.

I think people definitely see something strange or unusual but since they aren't up to date on the latest military developments, there is no way to identify that object.

Lisa

Author:  Light of the East [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Xavier wrote:
I came across a fascinating book about UFOs. It is different from others I read as a young person, in that the contributors have noteworthy credentials, including retired generals, fighter pilots, and directors of government laboratories. It is not easy to dismiss the evidence given the sources.

http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Whether or not any of these UFOs represent alien intelligences, I am wrestling with a number of questions and am wondering if any Catholic writers (or the Vatican) have put this possibility of alien life into perspective:

For instance, should we not take seriously the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people who claim to have seen aircraft that performed well beyond our own technology, especially the testimony of credible observers? I think as Christians, we must. We are willing to accept the testimony of people who also claim to have witnessed incredible events (namely the life and miracles of Jesus, and his apostles). Those witnesses have been gone for thousands of years and yet we trust them completely. In fairness, should we not also apply the same open-mindedness to other amazing phenomena that are also witnessed by people in our day? Particularly when it is corrobarated by multiple witnesses, and even technical equipment such as radar returns?

I also wonder about the implications of intelligent, alien life for the faith. God took the form of a human, and continues to occupy that form in Heaven. Does that mean the aliens would also be obliged to worship a human-like God? Or could God shed his human form and take on an alien form if needed to deliver them from sin, too? And what about the universe itself. If the universe changed because of Adam’s Fall, does that mean the universe changed for the aliens, too, even though they probably lived extreme distances away? I’m sure there are other implications that I’m not considering.

Thanks



Interesting post. This whole supposition is the basis of my space trilogy THE ESCHATON. The basic plot is that humans find out that they are not the only planet inhabited, but because Adam was the prototype of creation, his sin affected not only earth, but all of the created universe as well. The restoration of all things will put all in order in the universe.

It seems profoundly reasonable to think that there are other humanoid forms of life in this immense universe of ours. I think that the return of Christ and the finishing up of the salvific plan will inaugurate a new mode of existence that we cannot even begin to imagine. And I think that life on other planets will just be the beginning of that reality.

But ... that's just my fevored rantings.

Author:  GKC [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Light of the East wrote:
Xavier wrote:
I came across a fascinating book about UFOs. It is different from others I read as a young person, in that the contributors have noteworthy credentials, including retired generals, fighter pilots, and directors of government laboratories. It is not easy to dismiss the evidence given the sources.

http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Whether or not any of these UFOs represent alien intelligences, I am wrestling with a number of questions and am wondering if any Catholic writers (or the Vatican) have put this possibility of alien life into perspective:

For instance, should we not take seriously the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people who claim to have seen aircraft that performed well beyond our own technology, especially the testimony of credible observers? I think as Christians, we must. We are willing to accept the testimony of people who also claim to have witnessed incredible events (namely the life and miracles of Jesus, and his apostles). Those witnesses have been gone for thousands of years and yet we trust them completely. In fairness, should we not also apply the same open-mindedness to other amazing phenomena that are also witnessed by people in our day? Particularly when it is corrobarated by multiple witnesses, and even technical equipment such as radar returns?

I also wonder about the implications of intelligent, alien life for the faith. God took the form of a human, and continues to occupy that form in Heaven. Does that mean the aliens would also be obliged to worship a human-like God? Or could God shed his human form and take on an alien form if needed to deliver them from sin, too? And what about the universe itself. If the universe changed because of Adam’s Fall, does that mean the universe changed for the aliens, too, even though they probably lived extreme distances away? I’m sure there are other implications that I’m not considering.

Thanks



Interesting post. This whole supposition is the basis of my space trilogy THE ESCHATON. The basic plot is that humans find out that they are not the only planet inhabited, but because Adam was the prototype of creation, his sin affected not only earth, but all of the created universe as well. The restoration of all things will put all in order in the universe.

It seems profoundly reasonable to think that there are other humanoid forms of life in this immense universe of ours. I think that the return of Christ and the finishing up of the salvific plan will inaugurate a new mode of existence that we cannot even begin to imagine. And I think that life on other planets will just be the beginning of that reality.

But ... that's just my fevored rantings.



You got a space trilogy?

KMA.

GKC

Author:  Xavier [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
I have put an insane number of hours into studying UFOs. I once saw a UFO. I think that it is extremely improbable that they are craft from another intelligent race. Now, the way in which they move is consistent with theories of how gravity modification should work. NASA does have some articles concerning this. Gravity modification tech would theoretically allow you to travel something like 2/10 the speed of light, putting other solar systems too far out, still, to travel back and forth from. I think that there are other ideas that could be. These are the possibilities as I see them:

1- They are an ancient civilization of humans that remain hidden to us. There are some very interesting ancient writings from India that describe flying machines made by their people. These ancient writings describe what sounds like nuclear warfare, down to the after-affects to people that survive in the vicinity of an attack, and so forth.

2- Extra-terrestrial beings with a mother-ship(s) equipped with a closed ecology system, equipped with many smaller vehicles. I would imagine such a ship would then be from a now dead planet, as I would imagine it to be a last ditch effort to survive as a race. Such a ship would need to be a multi-generational endeavor.

3- They are actually demonic in nature, and may be used to destroy our belief in God, or in Christianity. One of the "major" alien races "seen" by people that claim to have seen ET beings is reptilian. The angels called seraphim are described as serpentine, that is what their name means. Another "major" ET race is the "inter-dimensional ET." That would be a spirit. There are some of the more, how do you say, "reliable" (cough, cough), groups like the people from the Disclosure Project that offer trips to search out UFOs, and promise an encounter with one of these ET inter-dimensional beings. I actually believe they are legit. Really. Not kidding. After all, demons are ET inter-dimensional beings. All angels are for that matter.

4- It is our governments. The US government and independent companies have been working on gravity modification since the 1930's, and the research in companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin are ongoing on this subject.

These are all just ideas that have floated through my head….


Why do you think it unlikely they are visitors from another planet? Because of the large distances involved? What if they are robotic probes, like we send to Mars. Those could traverse longer distances. Thus far, the book only discusses unidentified objects, and not alien beings. Roswell is dimissed in the first few pages and the emphasis is on a multitude of other sightings.

Author:  Light of the East [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

GKC wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Xavier wrote:
I came across a fascinating book about UFOs. It is different from others I read as a young person, in that the contributors have noteworthy credentials, including retired generals, fighter pilots, and directors of government laboratories. It is not easy to dismiss the evidence given the sources.

http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Whether or not any of these UFOs represent alien intelligences, I am wrestling with a number of questions and am wondering if any Catholic writers (or the Vatican) have put this possibility of alien life into perspective:

For instance, should we not take seriously the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people who claim to have seen aircraft that performed well beyond our own technology, especially the testimony of credible observers? I think as Christians, we must. We are willing to accept the testimony of people who also claim to have witnessed incredible events (namely the life and miracles of Jesus, and his apostles). Those witnesses have been gone for thousands of years and yet we trust them completely. In fairness, should we not also apply the same open-mindedness to other amazing phenomena that are also witnessed by people in our day? Particularly when it is corrobarated by multiple witnesses, and even technical equipment such as radar returns?

I also wonder about the implications of intelligent, alien life for the faith. God took the form of a human, and continues to occupy that form in Heaven. Does that mean the aliens would also be obliged to worship a human-like God? Or could God shed his human form and take on an alien form if needed to deliver them from sin, too? And what about the universe itself. If the universe changed because of Adam’s Fall, does that mean the universe changed for the aliens, too, even though they probably lived extreme distances away? I’m sure there are other implications that I’m not considering.

Thanks



Interesting post. This whole supposition is the basis of my space trilogy THE ESCHATON. The basic plot is that humans find out that they are not the only planet inhabited, but because Adam was the prototype of creation, his sin affected not only earth, but all of the created universe as well. The restoration of all things will put all in order in the universe.

It seems profoundly reasonable to think that there are other humanoid forms of life in this immense universe of ours. I think that the return of Christ and the finishing up of the salvific plan will inaugurate a new mode of existence that we cannot even begin to imagine. And I think that life on other planets will just be the beginning of that reality.

But ... that's just my fevored rantings.



You got a space trilogy?

KMA.

GKC


Sort of. Book one is finished in rough form. Book two is about halfway complete. I'll probably be a few more years playing with it before it ever sees ink. Just something I hatched up in my mind one night and it kinda got a life of its own. I need to work on it more frequently. Writer's Digest lists not writing as one of the top 10 mistakes that writers make. Just do it!

Author:  Servant of Guadalupe [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Xavier wrote:
Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
I have put an insane number of hours into studying UFOs. I once saw a UFO. I think that it is extremely improbable that they are craft from another intelligent race. Now, the way in which they move is consistent with theories of how gravity modification should work. NASA does have some articles concerning this. Gravity modification tech would theoretically allow you to travel something like 2/10 the speed of light, putting other solar systems too far out, still, to travel back and forth from. I think that there are other ideas that could be. These are the possibilities as I see them:

1- They are an ancient civilization of humans that remain hidden to us. There are some very interesting ancient writings from India that describe flying machines made by their people. These ancient writings describe what sounds like nuclear warfare, down to the after-affects to people that survive in the vicinity of an attack, and so forth.

2- Extra-terrestrial beings with a mother-ship(s) equipped with a closed ecology system, equipped with many smaller vehicles. I would imagine such a ship would then be from a now dead planet, as I would imagine it to be a last ditch effort to survive as a race. Such a ship would need to be a multi-generational endeavor.

3- They are actually demonic in nature, and may be used to destroy our belief in God, or in Christianity. One of the "major" alien races "seen" by people that claim to have seen ET beings is reptilian. The angels called seraphim are described as serpentine, that is what their name means. Another "major" ET race is the "inter-dimensional ET." That would be a spirit. There are some of the more, how do you say, "reliable" (cough, cough), groups like the people from the Disclosure Project that offer trips to search out UFOs, and promise an encounter with one of these ET inter-dimensional beings. I actually believe they are legit. Really. Not kidding. After all, demons are ET inter-dimensional beings. All angels are for that matter.

4- It is our governments. The US government and independent companies have been working on gravity modification since the 1930's, and the research in companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin are ongoing on this subject.

These are all just ideas that have floated through my head….


Why do you think it unlikely they are visitors from another planet? Because of the large distances involved? What if they are robotic probes, like we send to Mars. Those could traverse longer distances. Thus far, the book only discusses unidentified objects, and not alien beings. Roswell is dimissed in the first few pages and the emphasis is on a multitude of other sightings.

It is extremely improbable that ETs would ever find us, and even less probable that they can get here. As for the crafts that are seen being unmanned, I would say impossible. They react to us to quickly to be remote. I lean toward it being delusion or demonic.

Author:  Xavier [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Quote:
It is extremely improbable that ETs would ever find us, and even less probable that they can get here. As for the crafts that are seen being unmanned, I would say impossible. They react to us to quickly to be remote. I lean toward it being delusion or demonic.


They could be autonomous, meaning the craft can take action without a living being to direct it. Think "robot". I happen to work for the USAF on next generation control stations for semi-autonomous UAVs ("drone" aircraft). Eventually our aircraft will be able to conduct missions and respond to real or perceived threats with little human involvement. As a result, I can imagine a more technologically advanced race having mastered robotic/autonomous technologies a long time ago and send out probes to do whatever. In a more primitive way, we are doing this ourselves with the Mars rover, and predecessor projects like Viking.

We have been broadcasting radio signals for a long time (90 years?) and could be detected that way, much as we are attempting to detect radio waves from the stars right now (SETI).

I'm not saying UFOs represent alien technology, but I am saying it is possible these could be uninhabited vehicles that are controlled by artificial intelligence onboard.

Author:  DesertSailor [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

I've seen strange things in the night sky many times, but I don't believe they are aliens. I believe they are demonic. During the Black Death in Europe a bishop saw one and blessed it. It immediately crashed.

Author:  Servant of Guadalupe [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Xavier wrote:
Quote:
It is extremely improbable that ETs would ever find us, and even less probable that they can get here. As for the crafts that are seen being unmanned, I would say impossible. They react to us to quickly to be remote. I lean toward it being delusion or demonic.


They could be autonomous, meaning the craft can take action without a living being to direct it. Think "robot". I happen to work for the USAF on next generation control stations for semi-autonomous UAVs ("drone" aircraft). Eventually our aircraft will be able to conduct missions and respond to real or perceived threats with little human involvement. As a result, I can imagine a more technologically advanced race having mastered robotic/autonomous technologies a long time ago and send out probes to do whatever. In a more primitive way, we are doing this ourselves with the Mars rover, and predecessor projects like Viking.

We have been broadcasting radio signals for a long time (90 years?) and could be detected that way, much as we are attempting to detect radio waves from the stars right now (SETI).

I'm not saying UFOs represent alien technology, but I am saying it is possible these could be uninhabited vehicles that are controlled by artificial intelligence onboard.
90 years is not long enough for someone to get to us, even from the closest solar system. Everything is to far out. Now, there may be a chance that an ET race may have concluded the viability of life on Earth due to the chemicals in our atmosphere. So, I guess in that sense, they may have had enough time. I would still conclude that it would have to be a mothership(s). But our radio waves would not have gotten to them soon enough for that to be the reason they are here if they were here.

Author:  Xavier [ Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

A couple of people have said the UFOs could be demons. How could one know? They do not communicate with us.

Author:  Peetem [ Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

I believe the entire Alien abduction nonsense is demonic in nature. Its no coincidence that Whitley Strieber, who claimed he was abducted by aliens and wrote about it, was told to name his book about the experiences "Communion". According to Wiki he's a practicing Catholic - fwiw...

Author:  Xavier [ Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UFO's

Peetem wrote:
I believe the entire Alien abduction nonsense is demonic in nature. Its no coincidence that Whitley Strieber, who claimed he was abducted by aliens and wrote about it, was told to name his book about the experiences "Communion". According to Wiki he's a practicing Catholic - fwiw...


Good point. However, I am talking about the aerial craft. How could we know whether they are demonic in origin, since they do not (typically) communicate any messages?

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