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 Post subject: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:04 pm 
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So many questions raised by this talk. I suppose the biggest one is:

What are the implications for the catholic faith, and christianity in general, if there is more than one universe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZiROWO6iVs


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Do you watch Fringe?

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:10 pm 
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I read the Lisa project mentioned by Kaku has been put on hold

http://lisa.nasa.gov/


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Ancient Oracle wrote:
Do you watch Fringe?


No, I don't. Can you explain the relevance?


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:00 am 
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If I am remembering correctly, C.S. Lewis touched on the thought of there being other inhabited planets, and what it might mean.

In the second book of his space-science trilogy "Perelandra" he writes of a planet in which the inhabitants were not fallen beings. The beings on Perelandra called earth the "bent planet".


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:28 am 
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Xavier wrote:
So many questions raised by this talk. I suppose the biggest one is:

What are the implications for the catholic faith, and christianity in general, if there is more than one universe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZiROWO6iVs

None.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:11 pm 
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I don't think more than one universe is a coherent concept. As far as multiverse goes, that is balderdash and founded on an a priori assumption of something like determinism. It is the die hard determinists who cannot accept ontological indeterminism that posit it. There is no real evidence for it. And philosophically, it makes no sense. In fact I would go so far as to say that multiverse, as commonly conceived, is knowingly false, both by reason and as contrary to the Faith. There is only one me, only one Christ. There cannot be multiplications of the same entity in different "universes" That is self-contradictory.

But, even if per impossibile, multiple "universes" existed, not as part of the multiverse assumption, but just as brute fact, and without positing the absurd identification of substances accross them, then I would go with Bomb's answer

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
I don't think more than one universe is a coherent concept. As far as multiverse goes, that is balderdash and founded on an a priori assumption of something like determinism. It is the die hard determinists who cannot accept ontological indeterminism that posit it. There is no real evidence for it. And philosophically, it makes no sense. In fact I would go so far as to say that multiverse, as commonly conceived, is knowingly false, both by reason and as contrary to the Faith. There is only one me, only one Christ. There cannot be multiplications of the same entity in different "universes" That is self-contradictory.

But, even if per impossibile, multiple "universes" existed, not as part of the multiverse assumption, but just as brute fact, and without positing the absurd identification of substances accross them, then I would go with Bomb's answer


It is a difficult and badly mangled concept. Some of the multiverse theories are asinine, like the one you mention where there are alternate realities with copies of people here, etc.

The one he was talking about is much more reasonable. You do have to stretch the definition of the word "universe" a bit. What he was saying was that our universe has a finite size. That is the amount of space occupied by matter. Outside of those boundaries we would expect there to be nothing. Our universe could be spherical or coin shaped and everything inside would be considered our universe. Outside those boundaries we expect there to be a limitless amount of open space, nothingness, forever. Let's say we put a guy in a rocket ship and we will call the diameter of our universe one megafathom. The guy in the rocket ship travels 1,000 megafathoms whereupon he enters into another region of space occupied by matter, much like our universe. Then it turns out that there are billions of these universes where matter exists scattered all over the place.

The problem is that the term universe means everything everywhere. What you have to do is limit the term universe to mean the instance of matter in a region of the megaverse. We could use the word megaverse to refer to our universe, plus everything that resides outside of it, if anything, including the limitless nothing that stretches forever.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:38 pm 
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I see no theological problems arising from the possibility that God could have created matter outside our universe.

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- Justice Scalia, dissent, King v. Burwell.


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
I see no theological problems arising from the possibility that God could have created matter outside our universe.

God could have goggelty gooked gtnsrth

That is what that sentence means to me. Space is not infinite. Why some scientists insist on holding such an idea from the 17th century, and refuse to let it go, is beyond me. Extension does not exist by itself. Absolute space is nonsense.

As far as theology goes, yes it is important and believe it or not, theologians going back to Aquinas have asked the question about multiple universes. At least in the strict sense, the coherent sense really, there is only one universe, namely there is one ordered creation which is truly unified within that order.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I see no theological problems arising from the possibility that God could have created matter outside our universe.

God could have goggelty gooked gtnsrth

That is what that sentence means to me. Space is not infinite. Why some scientists insist on holding such an idea from the 17th century, and refuse to let it go, is beyond me. Extension does not exist by itself. Absolute space is nonsense.

As far as theology goes, yes it is important and believe it or not, theologians going back to Aquinas have asked the question about multiple universes. At least in the strict sense, the coherent sense really, there is only one universe, namely there is one ordered creation which is truly unified within that order.



Actually, there is no reason that space cannot be infinite if you are talking about space being a part of God's creation and not something separate from Him. Space, contained in God as part of His Being, may very well be infinite in relationship to us because He is infinite. On the other hand, space as a void into which God pours His Being is just nonsense.

The universe as we know it is within God as His creation. Space, therefore, is within God as His creation.

Therefore, space is infinite.

Why can there not be parallel universes and other inhabited planets. I think it a tad arrogant to think that we are the only thing alive in His universe.


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I see no theological problems arising from the possibility that God could have created matter outside our universe.

God could have goggelty gooked gtnsrth

That is what that sentence means to me. Space is not infinite. Why some scientists insist on holding such an idea from the 17th century, and refuse to let it go, is beyond me. Extension does not exist by itself. Absolute space is nonsense.

As far as theology goes, yes it is important and believe it or not, theologians going back to Aquinas have asked the question about multiple universes. At least in the strict sense, the coherent sense really, there is only one universe, namely there is one ordered creation which is truly unified within that order.



Actually, there is no reason that space cannot be infinite if you are talking about space being a part of God's creation and not something separate from Him. Space, contained in God as part of His Being, may very well be infinite in relationship to us because He is infinite. On the other hand, space as a void into which God pours His Being is just nonsense.

The universe as we know it is within God as His creation. Space, therefore, is within God as His creation.

Therefore, space is infinite.

Why can there not be parallel universes and other inhabited planets. I think it a tad arrogant to think that we are the only thing alive in His universe.

Newton, is that you?

My dog is alive. So who said we are the only thing alive? In any case, the Christian belief in a unified creation, aka one universe, derives from the belief in one God.

Extension is not something. It is a property of things. To have infinite extension existing presupposes either the self-contradictory infinite body, or that extension is something like a substance, which creates all sorts of problems..

In anycase, what you are describing sounds, frankly, pantheist. Space as part of God's being? That I reject as absurd, and contrary to Christian revelation. I dare say it is not even theistic.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Yeah, that didn't come out right, did it? I wasn't trying to sound Pantheist.

I remember being told once that we are all, as His creation, in the mind of God, and if He stopped thinking about us for even a second we would ** poof! ** cease to exist. What I was striving for (and expressed badly) is the idea that all that is created comes from Him. It is not a part of His essence and could never be, but He is the One Who sustains everything. Everything that is exists because of Him.

Why then do we limit the One Who is unlimited? Who knows perfectly the mind and essence of God so as to say that He is limited to creating just one universe? That begins to strike me as the same kind of denial that Protestants have when they can't believe bread and wine can be transformed in substance to the very Body and Blood of Christ. It seems to me to be putting limitations on God according to our own limited reasoning abilities.

It also seems to me that to deny this is to put a limitation of depth on God's ability, that is, to think that there can only be one universe seems to say "there can be an ever increasing universe in size, but not in depth (multiple layers of universes). Who says? Is our understanding that which is the final arbiter of God's creative ability? It can't be, because our ability to understand the universe is so limited. How much more then is our ability to understand He Who is incomprehensible to our understanding.

Sorry. I like a BIG God Who is capable of things my mind can't even begin to grasp!!


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I see no theological problems arising from the possibility that God could have created matter outside our universe.

God could have goggelty gooked gtnsrth

That is what that sentence means to me. Space is not infinite. Why some scientists insist on holding such an idea from the 17th century, and refuse to let it go, is beyond me. Extension does not exist by itself. Absolute space is nonsense.

As far as theology goes, yes it is important and believe it or not, theologians going back to Aquinas have asked the question about multiple universes. At least in the strict sense, the coherent sense really, there is only one universe, namely there is one ordered creation which is truly unified within that order.



Actually, there is no reason that space cannot be infinite if you are talking about space being a part of God's creation and not something separate from Him. Space, contained in God as part of His Being, may very well be infinite in relationship to us because He is infinite. On the other hand, space as a void into which God pours His Being is just nonsense.

The universe as we know it is within God as His creation. Space, therefore, is within God as His creation.

Therefore, space is infinite.

Why can there not be parallel universes and other inhabited planets. I think it a tad arrogant to think that we are the only thing alive in His universe.


If it is infinite in the same way that God is infinite, then isn't it just God Himself? :scratch:

In otherwords, we must deduce all things to pure actuality (which is God) and not to two parts (God and Space). Even if one is a part of the other.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Yeah, that didn't come out right, did it? I wasn't trying to sound Pantheist.

I remember being told once that we are all, as His creation, in the mind of God, and if He stopped thinking about us for even a second we would ** poof! ** cease to exist. What I was striving for (and expressed badly) is the idea that all that is created comes from Him. It is not a part of His essence and could never be, but He is the One Who sustains everything. Everything that is exists because of Him.

Why then do we limit the One Who is unlimited? Who knows perfectly the mind and essence of God so as to say that He is limited to creating just one universe? That begins to strike me as the same kind of denial that Protestants have when they can't believe bread and wine can be transformed in substance to the very Body and Blood of Christ. It seems to me to be putting limitations on God according to our own limited reasoning abilities.

It also seems to me that to deny this is to put a limitation of depth on God's ability, that is, to think that there can only be one universe seems to say "there can be an ever increasing universe in size, but not in depth (multiple layers of universes). Who says? Is our understanding that which is the final arbiter of God's creative ability? It can't be, because our ability to understand the universe is so limited. How much more then is our ability to understand He Who is incomprehensible to our understanding.

Sorry. I like a BIG God Who is capable of things my mind can't even begin to grasp!!


I don't think it was a matter of limiting Him, but about making God create contradictions and absurdities. Like a stone to heavy for Him to lift.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Okay. In reviewing and thinking about the posts here, I think I am getting it.

There really is no need for parallel or multiple universes, is there?

There can be life on other planets.

I think I got it. Maybe


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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I see no theological problems arising from the possibility that God could have created matter outside our universe.

God could have goggelty gooked gtnsrth

That is what that sentence means to me. Space is not infinite. Why some scientists insist on holding such an idea from the 17th century, and refuse to let it go, is beyond me. Extension does not exist by itself. Absolute space is nonsense.

As far as theology goes, yes it is important and believe it or not, theologians going back to Aquinas have asked the question about multiple universes. At least in the strict sense, the coherent sense really, there is only one universe, namely there is one ordered creation which is truly unified within that order.

What happens when you sail off the edge of the universe?

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Quote:
What happens when you sail off the edge of the universe?


You better hope you have a big oxygen supply, because I hear that the oxygen levels really deplete as you sail off the edge. Also, be sure to take a heavy coat, as it is on the chilly side there. It's always best to take a radio so you can keep up with the latest football scores.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:09 pm 
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It's a serious question. PED should answer.

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 Post subject: Re: What if we live in only one of many universes?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:12 pm 
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What edge?

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