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 Post subject: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:18 pm 
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I'm sure the Quakers would not mind a Catholic participating in their meeting, but would the Catholic church consider it to be a problem? As I'm sure everyone knows Quakers don't have a Eucharist or a creed.


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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:55 pm 
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What do you mean by "participating in"?

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:06 pm 
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The only way to answer this question is to reveal the hidden premise as to whether denominationalism is good or to be rejected. Can there be different 'brands' or Christianity? Was this what was envisioned by Christ? Is a "church service" a human construct, or was it given to the Apostles by Christ with certain rules? Should actions of unity be committed when actual unity of creed is not yet a reality... or is that sort of dishonest?

There is no doubt that the Catholic answer to this question sounds quite odd and offensive in a culture that praises denominationalism and a sort of syncretist attitude toward religion. But, the Catholic Church doesn't seek to be right with these times, but with the original teaching of Christ through the Apostles.

I know a couple that is going through a very rough patch in their marriage. One of the things that bothers the man so much is that the wife is all over him in public, but when they get home in private she is cold as ice. The reason there are Quakers, or methodists, or baptists, or lutherans, or evangelicals, etc etc etc is because we are all at odds with one another. We are separated by lines of denomination because each finds something wrong (or more wrong) with the others. Intentional ecumenical efforts are very nice and helpful, but being intentional they admit at the start that there is a separation that is being addressed. But, just participating in other denominations' church services on random Sundays, is not, imho, honest. I think it is disrespectful to your own faith, and to the one you are (through your actions) pretending to be in unity with when in fact you are not. A Catholic going to a Quaker service and participating fully is like the wife who is doing one thing in public and another in private.

Of course, I would hold this same principle regardless of the participants. It holds true for a professed baptist going to a Methodist service, etc etc. The more we ignore the lines that separate us in public, and yet still live them privately, the further away true Christian unity will be. There is a reason we call ourselves by different names. We have to deal with that fact if we truly want unity.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:10 pm 
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The Quakers do not baptize, therefore, they are not Christian.

This section from the Catechism may be of use:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#839

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:19 pm 
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If they do not baptize (I did not know this) then we have an answer from one of the earliest Church documents in existence! And this document was even considered Scripture by many early Christians, just to should you how important it was as a description of Apostolic thought...

From the Didache...
Quote:
Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:

We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..

And concerning the broken bread:

We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..

But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."


Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion. But after you are filled, give thanks this way:

We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You modest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Thou, Master almighty, didst create all things for Thy name's sake; You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. Before all things we thank Thee that You are mighty; to Thee be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou have prepared for it; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen.

But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire.

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:11 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
The Quakers do not baptize, therefore, they are not Christian.


I don't think baptism is the lithmus test, the lithmus test is the doctrine of the Trinity and the atonement...

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Doom wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
The Quakers do not baptize, therefore, they are not Christian.


I don't think baptism is the lithmus test, the lithmus test is the doctrine of the Trinity and the atonement...


If one is not baptized, one is not a Christian. If one's sect does not baptize, then it is not Christian no matter what it believes.

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Baptism is necessary but not sufficient.

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:38 pm 
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Doom wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
The Quakers do not baptize, therefore, they are not Christian.


I don't think baptism is the lithmus test, the lithmus test is the doctrine of the Trinity and the atonement...


According to Florence, only Baptism snatches someone from the dominion of the devil and places them in the kingdom of God. So, yes, Baptism is the litmus test. The Arians and the Nestorians were not trinitarians, but they were validly baptized. They were Christians right up until they pronounced their heresies.

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A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:41 pm 
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? The Nestorians were Trinitarians, they were (are) just gravely mistaken about the Hypostatic Union.

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:46 pm 
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At any rate..the Quakers don't actually even believe in the Bible....they believe themselves to be guided by 'the inner Christ'....

I really wish I was making that up.

And they have absolutely no sacraments of any kind.

For my own part, I have always thought of the Quakers as the most logically consistent Protestants in the world. Every other Protestant group begins by trying to trim a few branches off of the Catholic tree, while leaving some of the branches and the roots still there The result is a tangled mess which is not consistent with itself.

The Quakers are pretty much alone in just completely uprooting the tree.

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Pepsuber wrote:
? The Nestorians were Trinitarians, they were (are) just gravely mistaken about the Hypostatic Union.


:oops: I meant all them other guys :oops:

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Quakerism had a more Catholic-like counterpart in Quietism

The prayer practices were considered dangerous spiritually

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Doom wrote:
At any rate..the Quakers don't actually even believe in the Bible....they believe themselves to be guided by 'the inner Christ'....

I really wish I was making that up.

And they have absolutely no sacraments of any kind.

For my own part, I have always thought of the Quakers as the most logically consistent Protestants in the world. Every other Protestant group begins by trying to trim a few branches off of the Catholic tree, while leaving some of the branches and the roots still there The result is a tangled mess which is not consistent with itself.

The Quakers are pretty much alone in just completely uprooting the tree.


I didn't know that, and it really is too bad they believe this way.


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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:34 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Quakerism had a more Catholic-like counterpart in Quietism

The prayer practices were considered dangerous spiritually

Here is an interesting link on quakerism from 2006. I find it interesting about a quarter of the way through the talk, he lists all the things that are absent from their "meeting" as he calls it.
http://brooklynquaker.blogspot.com/2006 ... holic.html


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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Quakerism had a more Catholic-like counterpart in Quietism

The prayer practices were considered dangerous spiritually


The Orthodox church has hesychasm, (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Hesychasm), but I guess it is mostly restricted to monasteries.

I have a feeling that meditation might help me. That's why I'm interested in Buddhism, Yoga, Quakers, and Orthodox monks. Going to church and trying to follow the rules only made me feel self-righteous and distracted me from the fact that I wasn't becoming more Christlike. I'm naturally skeptical about Christianity, so I need the encouragement of some measurable progress to keep me in a church. I didn't see a bit of progress from two years as an Orthodox.


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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:25 pm 
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ForumJunkie wrote:
...There is no doubt that the Catholic answer to this question sounds quite odd and offensive in a culture that praises denominationalism and a sort of syncretist attitude toward religion. ...
Well said. Quite well said. You might have deleted "...sort of...", but spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:38 pm 
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You can find out more about Quietism in Chapter XXVII of this book: http://www.scribd.com/full/71866244?acc ... u4uznowvaf

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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Originating somewhere in the 17th century, I am not sure what part of the Protestant reformation they break from, but after learning a little bit more about them and their beliefs, I would probably be very cautious and maybe even just stay away and not have any direct involvement.


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 Post subject: Re: church position on Quakers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:59 pm 
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The Quakers are sui generis. I guess you could say they trace back through the Anabaptists, if you really wanted to.

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