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 Post subject: Whose soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:34 am 
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Journeyman
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In Luke chapter 2:33-25,

Quote:
33 And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him; 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother,

“Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel,
and for a sign that is spoken against
35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also),
that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.”


Is Simeon talking to Mary about Jesus, or referring to Mary herself?

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Last edited by Nathan on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:39 am 
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gotta be the Blessed Mother

from Haydock

Quote:
Ver. 35. And thy own soul a sword shall pierce. These words, which figuratively express the grief of the blessed Virgin mother, when present at the death of her Son, are to be taken by way of a parenthesis. --- That out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed, and these are to be joined with what went before; to wit, that child shall be a sign of contradiction, set unto the fall and resurrection of many, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed and disclosed; when some shall believe, and others remain in their obstinacy. (Witham) --- Ven. Bede, and many others, understand this of the sharp sorrow, which wounded the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary, at the time of Christ's passion. (Barradius) --- Carthusianus [Denis the Carthusian?] and Jansenius explain this passage as follows: Behold, this child is placed for a sign that shall be contradicted, which as a sword of most poignant grief will pierce thy soul, O Virgin! But Christ shall be contradicted, that the thoughts of the Jews may be revealed from many hearts, and it may appear who among them are good, and who are wicked and hypocrites. (Barradius)

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:47 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
gotta be the Blessed Mother

from Haydock

Quote:
Ver. 35. And thy own soul a sword shall pierce. These words, which figuratively express the grief of the blessed Virgin mother, when present at the death of her Son, are to be taken by way of a parenthesis. --- That out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed, and these are to be joined with what went before; to wit, that child shall be a sign of contradiction, set unto the fall and resurrection of many, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed and disclosed; when some shall believe, and others remain in their obstinacy. (Witham) --- Ven. Bede, and many others, understand this of the sharp sorrow, which wounded the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary, at the time of Christ's passion. (Barradius) --- Carthusianus [Denis the Carthusian?] and Jansenius explain this passage as follows: Behold, this child is placed for a sign that shall be contradicted, which as a sword of most poignant grief will pierce thy soul, O Virgin! But Christ shall be contradicted, that the thoughts of the Jews may be revealed from many hearts, and it may appear who among them are good, and who are wicked and hypocrites. (Barradius)



Haydoc uses the DR which does not parenthesize that portion of the text. I guess this is parenthesis is a hotly debated topic among the exegetes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:12 am 
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I've never encountered such a controversy. He's talking to Mary.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:33 am 
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How is this even a question? He is speaking directly to Mary and says 'your'. If I am speaking directly to you and say 'your' who else am I addressing :scratch:?

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Last edited by Doom on Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:10 am 
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Yea, I've never seen this questioned before, and can't see how there could be any confusion...

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:33 am 
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Doom wrote:
Who is this even a question? He is speaking directly to Mary and says 'your'. If I am speaking directly to you and say 'your' who else am I addressing :scratch: ?

Well some don't apply the same logic to Mat 16:18,19 :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:36 am 
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the word in Greek is "σοῦ" which is the exact equivalent of "thee" (singular accusative 2nd person pronoun)

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:53 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Doom wrote:
Who is this even a question? He is speaking directly to Mary and says 'your'. If I am speaking directly to you and say 'your' who else am I addressing :scratch: ?

Well some don't apply the same logic to Mat 16:18,19 :fyi:


Peter was not meant to be taken as Peter or Petra or... :arrow:

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:48 pm 
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It is Mary.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Even the footnote in the NAB says that Simeon is talking to Our Lady:

Quote:
* [2:35] (And you yourself a sword will pierce): Mary herself will not be untouched by the various reactions to the role of Jesus (Lk 2:34). Her blessedness as mother of the Lord will be challenged by her son who describes true blessedness as “hearing the word of God and observing it” (Lk 11:27–28 and Lk 8:20–21).

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
the word in Greek is "σοῦ" which is the exact equivalent of "thee" (singular accusative 2nd person pronoun)



Do you know Greek?

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:28 pm 
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He does.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:50 pm 
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My parish is offering a Greek class, I'm not sure if I should learn a language purely for theological study. Maybe I'd be better learning Spanish.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Nathan wrote:
My parish is offering a Greek class, I'm not sure if I should learn a language purely for theological study. Maybe I'd be better learning Spanish.


I first learned the alphabet in college by osmosis because anyone who pledged a sorority had to memorize it. I finally had an opportunity to take a class using Mounce. It unceremonially ended after 6 weeks. Don't know why, but I would have liked to continue. Since I'm not someone who learns on my own, having a class would be a blessing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Nathan wrote:
My parish is offering a Greek class, I'm not sure if I should learn a language purely for theological study. Maybe I'd be better learning Spanish.


I honestly don't understand this, it's not a question of the Greek at all. Simeon is talking to Mary, when Simeon is referring to Jesus he says 'he', then suddenly he starts saying 'your'. The meaning is clear when the pronoun changes, he is talking about a different person, if he wasn't talking about a different person, he wouldn't have changed the pronoun.

Again, I am confused, how is this even a question? It has nothing to do with the Greek. Where did you get the idea that Simeon isn't talking about Mary?

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Nathan wrote:
My parish is offering a Greek class, I'm not sure if I should learn a language purely for theological study. Maybe I'd be better learning Spanish.

Greek is like anything else that can be a massive benefit if used properly or can be used to justify all sorts of stupid ideas. If you are willing to use it correctly, I liken it to watching a show on a high definition TV as opposed to a black and white screen. Same picture, but much, much clearer. Anyone, then, who tries to get fundamentally different ideas out of a Greek text should immediately be held suspect. Yes, there are problems in translation, but more often than not, our translators are much, much better at rendering the language in to English (or whatever the receptor language is) than those who took it even for a few years in seminary. They definitely know it better than some guy who looked up a word in Strong's concordance using the number system and can now tell you what the word "really" means. *shudder*

But, again, I found it to be one of the best things I ever did. The Bible is just better in its own tongues. You can hear the author's voices so much more clearly. I like what Bruce Metzger said . . . reading the Bible in English is like kissing your wife through a veil.

So, yeah, if you have a chance to take it, I would highly recommend it. But please know up front from the very first day that such knowledge isn't going to help you discover secret nuances that others have missed through church history. That just won't happen. The vast, vast, vast majority of the time, you aren't going to prove your English translation wrong. You won't see the "real" meaning of the text. Rather, you'll come to see a lot more clearly the emphases of the text, the logical connections and the flow of thought, and you'll see why certain translators opted for certain translations at different points. You'll come to see various translations as commentaries. And you'll have the added benefit of being able to use and read real exegetical tools and works rather than relying on Strong's or some other popular equivalent. But if that's not enough for you, if you think taking it is going to let you answer the great mysteries, don't waste your time. You're far more likely to get yourself in trouble than you are to find any sort of meaningful illumination.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Just to play up a little on what Jack says: When there are differing translations, knowing the Greek often can help you see why the translators chose what they did (sometimes it's a matter of textual criticism, which is a different kettle of fish [mmmmm ... fish]). And sometimes you'll look at the Greek and still wonder why the translators chose what they did. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Who's soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:09 am 
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Doom wrote:
Nathan wrote:
My parish is offering a Greek class, I'm not sure if I should learn a language purely for theological study. Maybe I'd be better learning Spanish.


I honestly don't understand this, it's not a question of the Greek at all. Simeon is talking to Mary, when Simeon is referring to Jesus he says 'he', then suddenly he starts saying 'your'. The meaning is clear when the pronoun changes, he is talking about a different person, if he wasn't talking about a different person, he wouldn't have changed the pronoun.

Again, I am confused, how is this even a question? It has nothing to do with the Greek. Where did you get the idea that Simeon isn't talking about Mary?


Came across this question on EWTN when looking for more information on the verse...

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessa ... anguage=en

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 Post subject: Re: Whose soul is being pierced?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:30 am 
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The question I see there regarding the piercing is not whose heart, but in what the piercing consists. The "to whom does it apply?" deals with whether the thoughts of hearts are revealed by the piercing or by the sign spoken against.

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