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 Post subject: Skull caps...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:36 pm 
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I used to know what they were called, but for the life of me I can't remember what they're called. Anyway, since christians, (but catholics have more of a tradition in it) are messianic jews, can the laity wear them? I know the clergy can, but what about the laity? The CHurch is big on showing that you're catholic with the fasting and whatnot, so I'm just curious, what's the Church's teaching? My Latin teacher wears a pretty ornate one, but he's byzantine catholic, so I don't know if their rules apply to us as well. ANyway, thanks in advance, and sorry about rambling. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:39 pm 
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zuchettos

White for pope
Red for cardinal
Purple for bishop
black for priest

Some religious orders have their own (white for Nobertines)

I have never heard of laity wearing on. As long as they wear one not of ecclesiatical significance, and of course one cannot wear it at Mass or in Church, I do not see a problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:40 pm 
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zuchetto, thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:40 pm 
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In the Catholic Church, zuchettos are worn by Bishops and Cardinals, and of course, the Holy Father, who is a Bishop! I don't think laity can wear them.
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Linda

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:43 pm 
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St. Dymphna wrote:
In the Catholic Church, zuchettos are worn by Bishops and Cardinals, and of course, the Holy Father, who is a Bishop! I don't think laity can wear them.
Peace,
Linda

And priests ;) (though rarely. Even traditional ones usually just wear a birreta)

I do not see why, if the zuchetto is clearly not ecclesiatical (of a design differing from what prelates and priests wear) it would be wrong for the laity to wear it. If it can be taken as clerical thenn no, do not wear one

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:55 pm 
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Like I said, my teacher is a fossil of the byzantine, and he wears a pretty one with mostly brown and black symbols, so it's pretty clearly not clerical. I wasn't sure if what applies to him also applies to roman catholics in this case. I've looked around the internet and it's pretty much all guesswork, so I'm in a spot. I'm not bent on wearing one, just curious. Again, thanks ofr the help. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:45 am 
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I've never heard of, or seen, a lay person wearing a zuchetto. They are less often worn today than in yesteryear - but then, so is most headwear.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:50 am 
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The zuchetto is indeed clearly ecclesiastical. It exists because European churches were unheated stone buildings, which means they were icy cold half the year, and clerics were tonsured. Tonsured? Yes - it means that when you became a cleric, you had a spot on the top of your head shaved bald. (Yep, just like monks on commercials...) The ceremony of tonsure lasted down until a little more than thirty years ago, although it was not practiced the same way everywhere. In the US, it meant that they took five snips off the top of your head when you were made a subdeacon. It messed up your haircut for a week, but then it grew back and that was that. In places such as Italy, however, priests continued to shave a spot on their heads down until around the Second World War. It was mandatory under canon law for clerics to wear the tonsure up until about ninety years ago, and the practice in English-speaking countries (where there was a history of persecution) of letting priests grow their hair back was the tolerated exception, not the rule. I do not think that permanent tonsure was required by the Code of 1917, but I may be wrong -- in any case, whether required by Canon law or not many European priests certainly continued to shave a spot long after that time.

While tonsure is no longer practiced, the garment-that-covers-the-tonsured-spot-to-keep-the-bald-area-warm (in other words, the zuchetto) still exists. As the zucchetto is directly connected to the tonsure, and as tonsure is by definition something that identifies a cleric, a layman thus has no business wearing a zucchetto.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:15 pm 
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I think the zucchetto's for the laity come with the propeller on top.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:12 am 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Humorously enough, the papal 'zucchetto' can, to the untrained eye, look an awful lot like a Jewish Yarmulke. During the Holy Father's visit to the Holy Land during the 2000 Jubilee. John Paul II had a brief diplomatic visit with then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and the caption for the photo that ran in the next day's Jerusalem Post which showed the Pope and Prime Minister together said 'Prime Minister Baruk together with Pope John Paul II (the Pope is the one in the yarmulke).' :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:13 am 
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The zuchetto is larger and fits over more of the crown of the head than does the yamulke, right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:55 am 
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Custos wrote:
The zuchetto is indeed clearly ecclesiastical. It exists because European churches were unheated stone buildings, which means they were icy cold half the year, and clerics were tonsured. Tonsured? Yes - it means that when you became a cleric, you had a spot on the top of your head shaved bald. (Yep, just like monks on commercials...) The ceremony of tonsure lasted down until a little more than thirty years ago, although it was not practiced the same way everywhere. In the US, it meant that they took five snips off the top of your head when you were made a subdeacon. It messed up your haircut for a week, but then it grew back and that was that. In places such as Italy, however, priests continued to shave a spot on their heads down until around the Second World War. It was mandatory under canon law for clerics to wear the tonsure up until about ninety years ago, and the practice in English-speaking countries (where there was a history of persecution) of letting priests grow their hair back was the tolerated exception, not the rule. I do not think that permanent tonsure was required by the Code of 1917, but I may be wrong -- in any case, whether required by Canon law or not many European priests certainly continued to shave a spot long after that time.

While tonsure is no longer practiced, the garment-that-covers-the-tonsured-spot-to-keep-the-bald-area-warm (in other words, the zuchetto) still exists. As the zucchetto is directly connected to the tonsure, and as tonsure is by definition something that identifies a cleric, a layman thus has no business wearing a zucchetto.

So there is no connection between the zuchetto and the yarmulke?

And what was the purpose of tonsure?

Why do Jews wear yarmulkes?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:22 pm 
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Turbo wrote:
The zuchetto is larger and fits over more of the crown of the head than does the yamulke, right?


It is also a tighter fit

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:44 am 
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ye110man wrote:
.... Why do Jews wear yarmulkes?


http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/K ... r_Head.asp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:43 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
And what was the purpose of tonsure?
Shaving the head was a sign of slavery among the Greeks and Romans. The early monks adopted the practice as sign of slavery/service to Christ. The practice eventually was also adopted by the secular clergy, as well.

Justin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:39 am 
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Turbo wrote:
The zuchetto is larger and fits over more of the crown of the head than does the yamulke, right?


Yarmulkes come in all sizes and colors. There are a lot of different traditions. Some Eastern European knit styles are extremely colorful. Some are in the "mighty big" category and can stick up a little or even cover a guy's ears (handy in subzero climates).

BTW, women not only wear hats, they wear a sheital (wig). It all has to do with tznius, a concept involving modesty, dignity, and "non-thing-hood." On the general topic see (the article is equally usable for people of any faith; it's a shared topic!):

http://www.aish.com/societywork/women/B ... odesty.asp


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 Post subject: Re: Skull caps...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Greetings everyone.

I am a newcomer to this site, and I am delighted by the spirited discussion on this particular topic.

However, the great concern over rules regarding head coverings for men is mildly amusing.

Women did not allow rules to get in their way if changing rules in general or the immemorial custom of the Church, established from ancient times, to jettison the Apostolic practice and adopt the protestant practice.

So if men wish to adopt the reverse custom and begin again the practice of retaining a head covering, in Church, then they should do so.

Besides, I am strongly inclined to do so if only to illustrate the folly of the feminist practice, which modern Catholic women are doing, since women were more informed by the exhortations if Betty Friedan's "Femine Mystique" than any admonition the Church gave or warning about contradicting an explicit Biblical guideline and Apostolic practice.

Besides, a man wearing a hat in church is actually the ancient practice, as evidenced by a priest wearing a biretta, who is careful to remove it, at least in the traditional Latin Mass, whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned as in the Gloria and Creed, or when approaching the altar.

The Oriental Orthodox, like the Armenian, retain the head covering up to the consecration.

I am a former Baptist minister, Catholic since 1991.


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 Post subject: Re: Skull caps...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Skull caps...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Wow. A twelve-year old thread!

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