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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:59 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
gherkin wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
and don't really care what they do in the East either.

I don't either, but the prayer can hardly be both a novel Protestanty innovation and an ancient practice of the Eastern Rite.

Sure it can, in the West it's novel and Protestant, in the East it's part of their tradition. I have little doubt that it was added to the Mass of the Roman Rite in order to make it more acceptable to Protestants (this is Msgr. Gamber's conclusion as well, iirc).

I've tried to deliberately separate the issue you mention in your second sentence from the issue you treat in your first sentence. That's why I keep talking in the language of 'as such,' though evidently I have not stressed that enough. The prayer itself is ancient and not novel, and it been part of Catholic masses since Apostolic times. That's what I'm saying. Yes of course it's novel to include it in the western liturgy--that's not under dispute and indeed it is the whole reason we're talking about it in the first place! But there is a world of space in between the question of why the thing was added (which may very well have been for nefarious reasons) and the question of whether the addition as such--considered just in itself--is somehow objectionable. That's all I'm talking about!


it's a technical point that he makes, but I perfectly understand what both of you are saying, think both of you are correct, and agree with both of you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:24 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
I don't take offense to it at all.
I believe i've said on this board before that there are MANY whackadoodles among the TLM ranks, SSPX, FSSP, SSPV, etc.
I've known some SSPXers who left because the SSPX priest was a certain way (e.g., not 'traditional enough' or 'said something during the sermon that wasn't exactly accurate with regards to _______ (name your poison... limbo, the beatific vision, etc.)), or 'continues to preach in such a way as to suggest that he might be sedevacantist'... etc. etc..

I have experienced SSPXers who think the Russians and the Chinese are putting out microwaves through the tv in order to brainwash you into become pro-communist, ergo, they have no tv in their house at all. And they live out on a farm 'off the grid' with no neighbors for 5 miles in all directions... homeschoolers, naturally... they do not listen to the radio, because of course, the devil talks through that apparatus, too. They have a CD player, and listen to monks chanting, or they listen to old, pre-1955 sermons that have been recorded, and their bookshelves are filled with nothing but religious-based books... no "literature" in general...

Yes.. absolute whackadoodles. You'll get no disagreement with me on that point at all.

But, for what it's worth, we had a convert to Catholicism start coming to the chapel, and after about a year or so, he discussed with our priest that he (the convert) had done a lot of reading and had decided to come down on the side of sedevacantism. Within a matter of weeks (presumably to discuss the issue with the guy), the priest eventually told him he was no longer welcome at the chapel. In my personal experience, we've had (I think) about 7 pastors since 2004 when I first started going, and many who have passed through for various reasons, and all of them were absolutely not sedevacantists.

... although one did eventually become sedevacantist and went off with +Williamson when he was kicked out of the Society. Sadly, in my opinion, Williamson eventually made him a bishop (cf. Gerardo Zendejas)...
And on a whackadoodle side note:
Williamson made Jean-Michel Faure a bishop (with no co-consecrator)
Williamson and Faure made this guy named Ferrera da Costa a bishop (who now goes by the name, Thomas Aquinas)
Williamson, Faure and da Costa then made Zendejas a bishop.

The whole SSPX "Resistance"... which became the SSPX-SO (strict ordinance), and which I just discovered is now SSPX-MC (marian corps)... is all whackadoodle, and no different that the SSPV.

I mean... at least +Lefebvre was able to find another legitimately consecrated bishop in communion with Rome when he made the 4 SSPX bishops.

Here are my thoughts on this for what it’s worth.

My wife and I have been homeschooling our 11 kids for almost 7 years now; In the very blue state of California for the most part. Because of how blue CA is (I suspect this plays a role but not entirely sure), the pockets of homeschool communities we ended up engaging with pretty much unloaded much of what has been expressed in this thread already with regards to……liturgical abuses, irreverence, etc. At first glance, it all seemed very rigorist and scrupulous to us. Particularly because there was no actual doctrinal distinction between us and the more traditionalist families; so I didn’t understand what all the fuss was about. Some of them would even comment that we were “unique” because we took the faith serious. I thought it was an odd thing to say, given we really did not see ourselves any different from others. Now, this doesn’t mean I wasn’t aware of a good portion of what they were saying; I mean, I see what they see but just didn’t respond in the same way and it just came across that if I wasn’t as perturbed or bothered that we either didn’t get it or were slowly snuffed out from said groups. It was subtle so I can’t exactly prove it; but it happened enough times that it became hard to ignore.

It always seemed wrong to seek higher forms out of rancor or any such ill will and it’s unfortunate that is almost entirely what we encountered. It was never “hey look at how beautiful the TLM is”……and follow it by explaining why things are done that way. One couldn’t talk about the TLM without first trashing on the NO first. It was like an itch that had to be scratched and it was radiantly obvious to us.

Through God’s grace, we didn’t allow that to stop us from exploring the option and as mentioned before we eventually did. It is however, unfortunate if other families out there experienced the same thing and just grew to distaste the TLM because of it.

What I’m getting at isn’t that whackadoodles exist in more traditional parishes only, they exist everywhere in the Church, but more as to why………if they love the truth, The Church, the liturgy, etc. as much as it was expressed to me, will they not clean up their own house first before they start to talk about an NO parish they likely haven’t attended in years? Even more so, what is it about the TLM groups that dispositions people to be this way more? Granted, I get that weirdos perhaps flock there more for a variety of reasons but it really did feel like disobedience, resistance, etc. was just a part of the ethos in these chapels. How is that not damaging to the faith?

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:36 am 
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"whackadoodles.......what is it about the TLM groups that dispositions people to be this way more?" - Dominic

Because whackadoodles are drawn to being different. TLM is very different, especially compared to other forms of Christian worship on the planet.

Hope I don't offend anyone here, but have you ever been to a Renaissance Festival? Its a bunch of folks running around in costumes talking in their best Monty Python voices, eating food with their bare hands, discussing the art of crafting broadswords and chainmail.

And nearly all of them are whackadoodles.

Some people are just drawn to "different" because well, its "different."

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:53 am 
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There are whackadoodles everywhere. The difference with people attracted to the TLM isn't that they're crazier than people attending mainstream parishes, it's that their opinions are not respectable. Sure, people who think the moon landing was faked hold a weird opinion that is not "respectable" in polite society, but are they really weirder than people who think that contraception is good, that abortion can be morally justified, or that women can be ordained to the priesthood? Each of those opinions is a respectable one, you won't be excluded from polite society for holding them, but each of them is also crazier than the idea that the moon landing was faked.

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:54 am 
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Dominic wrote:
1. Some people (and I wish this was a mild joke) believed dwarfism was a curse and that they were a different species.


:shock: :shock: :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:11 am 
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i'm just happy 3 different, other folks have embraced the whackadoodle term.

...i started to type some more thoughts out on this, but i find it very difficult to articulate things.
i don't know how to define the whackadoodle, but i know it when i see it.

i'll agree that whackadoodlism is not limited to TLM folks.
fundamental protestantism can be just as prone to the whackadoodle as anything else.
so can some islamists.
the amish are pretty whackadoodle by nature, i think.

but look... i've watched all the harry potter films and i haven't been tempted in the slightest to embrace satanism and black magic.

...just sayin.

that said, i'm not putting an 'alexa' thing in my house.


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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:05 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
i'm just happy 3 different, other folks have embraced the whackadoodle term.

...i started to type some more thoughts out on this, but i find it very difficult to articulate things.
i don't know how to define the whackadoodle, but i know it when i see it.

i'll agree that whackadoodlism is not limited to TLM folks.
fundamental protestantism can be just as prone to the whackadoodle as anything else.
so can some islamists.
the amish are pretty whackadoodle by nature, i think.

but look... i've watched all the harry potter films and i haven't been tempted in the slightest to embrace satanism and black magic.

...just sayin.

that said, i'm not putting an 'alexa' thing in my house.


If you live long enough IOT is essentially the future and Alexa will be everywhere. You will not be able to buy anything other than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:26 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
i'm just happy 3 different, other folks have embraced the whackadoodle term.

...i started to type some more thoughts out on this, but i find it very difficult to articulate things.
i don't know how to define the whackadoodle, but i know it when i see it.

i'll agree that whackadoodlism is not limited to TLM folks.
fundamental protestantism can be just as prone to the whackadoodle as anything else.
so can some islamists.
the amish are pretty whackadoodle by nature, i think.

but look... i've watched all the harry potter films and i haven't been tempted in the slightest to embrace satanism and black magic.

...just sayin.

that said, i'm not putting an 'alexa' thing in my house.


If you live long enough IOT is essentially the future and Alexa will be everywhere. You will not be able to buy anything other than that.


sure gonna make hard for deaf people....

... and the scottish. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:22 pm 
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No reason Alexa couldn't have software to "scan" ASL and translate to a query. I suppose one could fingerspell A-L-E-X-A or have a custom sign to "wake" it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:56 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
No reason Alexa couldn't have software to "scan" ASL and translate to a query. I suppose one could fingerspell A-L-E-X-A or have a custom sign to "wake" it up.


we'll see.
so far, though, alexa sure don't understand the stereotypical deaf speech...

... and, as mentioned, it struggles with scottish, too. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:28 am 
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The idea behind IOT, 5G, and the entire infrastructure is that it is able to pick up on a variety of patterns and learn from that. You can be deaf, blind, sick, etc.......it will figure that out and customize accordingly. It uses cameras, sensors, sound, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:27 pm 
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Dominic wrote:

1. Some people (and I wish this was a mild joke) believed dwarfism was a curse and that they were a different species.


.......to name a few.

Number one was probably the rarest, but there was a mixture of these to people that filled these chapels.


:shock: :shock: :shock:

Just in case you did not know, I am a person with pseudoachondroplasia, a form of dwarfism.

The whole curse thing was not rare to hear back in my Protestant Charismatic/Pentecostal experiences. If I had a dollar for every one of them that laid hands on and prayed for me to be delivered from the curse of dwarfism, I'd have a nice nest egg.

Thinking about it, your entire list of things were very common in that fundamentalist mindset. Also, ATMs were the mark of the Beast and Proctor & Gamble logo proved they sacrificed puppies to the sun God RA.

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:21 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Dominic wrote:

1. Some people (and I wish this was a mild joke) believed dwarfism was a curse and that they were a different species.


.......to name a few.

Number one was probably the rarest, but there was a mixture of these to people that filled these chapels.


:shock: :shock: :shock:

Just in case you did not know, I am a person with pseudoachondroplasia, a form of dwarfism.

The whole curse thing was not rare to hear back in my Protestant Charismatic/Pentecostal experiences. If I had a dollar for every one of them that laid hands on and prayed for me to be delivered from the curse of dwarfism, I'd have a nice nest egg.

Thinking about it, your entire list of things were very common in that fundamentalist mindset. Also, ATMs were the mark of the Beast and Proctor & Gamble logo proved they sacrificed puppies to the sun God RA.


Ahhh, the gold ole Procter & Gamble logo kertuffle.

That was the first national hoax I think. I actually wrote them about it and they sent me a ton on info rebutting the rumor.

But, it was weird that the company started out by making "star candles" with a rather sinister logo (you should see the original logo and product). They admitted it and didn't think it strange. But the original logo on a crate of star candles made me go "hmmmm, there could be some truth to all of this stuff."

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:36 am 
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gherkin wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
and don't really care what they do in the East either.

I don't either, but the prayer can hardly be both a novel Protestanty innovation and an ancient practice of the Eastern Rite.

The doxology at the end of the Lord's Prayer isn't a protestant innovation. It is not found in the earliest manuscripts of the Gospels, but it is found in the Didache, which Pope Benedict XVI believed was contemporary with the Gospels.


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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:28 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
gherkin wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
and don't really care what they do in the East either.

I don't either, but the prayer can hardly be both a novel Protestanty innovation and an ancient practice of the Eastern Rite.

The doxology at the end of the Lord's Prayer isn't a protestant innovation. It is not found in the earliest manuscripts of the Gospels, but it is found in the Didache, which Pope Benedict XVI believed was contemporary with the Gospels.

Right! That's why I kept saying it's been part of the liturgy in the east since the time of the Apostles. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:02 am 
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I've never heard that the Didache is a liturgical document

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:06 am 
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I'm responding principally to the first sentence in Vern's post, not calling the Didache a liturgical document. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:13 pm 
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Then we can't say that the Doxology has always been a part of the liturgy in the East - we don't know when it was added

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:52 pm 
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As far as we know, it has been part of the liturgy forever. Indeed, by far the most plausible explanation for its appearance in later editions of the Gospels is its presence in the liturgy, prompting the copier to add it whether deliberately or just accidentally. At any rate, it's not new and it's been there as far back as we can see, and indeed farther. That said, I've definitely got nothing more to say about this prayer. Gosh, it was a tiny point and somehow it has taken over the whole thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Morally Impeded from attending Mass
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:16 am 
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gherkin wrote:
That said, I've definitely got nothing more to say about this prayer. Gosh, it was a tiny point and somehow it has taken over the whole thread.


Indeed.
My only point was that saying it reminded me of being protestant.

The doxology isn't included at the end of every Pater Noster of the rosary, for example.
It wasn't done at the end of every Pater Noster we prayed at the beginning of every class period when I was in high school.
It's not done in the TLM.
I've never heard it done at any funeral.
I've never heard it done at any wedding.
In fact, the only time I've ever heard the doxology done by Roman Catholics is that one time it's called for in the Pauline Mass.

..but I've heard it *every* time a protestant, on any occasion whatsoever, has ever prayed the Lord's Prayer.

I wasn't trying to start a debate. I was just saying that the doxology sounds protestanty and makes me feel all protestanty inside.


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