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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:25 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Banned for twisting.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh8eb_ACLl8


Like we did last summer.

V

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
.

..

...


I'd like to join in ... but with a twist.

IV

Banned for twisting.


The comatose banning thread is thataway ----------------->

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:46 am 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
My grandson's girlfriend is vegan. She's 20, looks 12, has a pasty complexion, very thin, and generally looks sick.


That isn't because she's vegan. It's well accepted by dietitians that a planned vegan diet is perfectly healthy. The reason it needs to be "planned" is because most people don't grow up vegan and they need to learn how to do it in a healthy manner. Once they learn it, they can do it off the cuff. Unfortunately right now there are a lot of vegan quasi celebrities in the social media world who are preaching that protein simply isn't that important and that there really is no need to be aware of what you're eating pass making sure it isn't animal. It's depressing how influential some of these people have become and they do result is vegans with bad diets.

The fact that some people do the diet badly though doesn't make the diet bad. There are meat eaters who are incredibly unhealthy, yet few meat eaters find that an argument that eating meat is automatically bad. In our respective countries there are an awful lot of meat eaters who are unhealthy. They might not be pasty but someone with a BMI of 40 isn't healthy (and I say that as someone with a much too high BMI). You might say "they aren't obese because they eat meat". I'd even agree. It's because they eat a bad diet, it just happens to include meat. Just as some vegans choose to eat a bad diet that doesn't include meat. The meat, or lack of it, isn't the problem.

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Family gatherings revolve around her chosen lifestyle, and that causes tension. I gave up trying to feed her separately from the rest of the family, and told her to bring her own food. It's expensive enough buying food for a big meal for a big family. The ingredients for her meal would be almost as expensive, if I can even find them in our area. Preparation would be a nightmare, as her food can't touch ours.


Gosh, he's asking a lot to expect you to cook a full vegan meal for her. I'd go to the freezer section and look for something similar to chicken nuggets. Throw those in the oven and she can have them with what ever veggies you're cooking for the family. Gardein seems to be a popular, and reasonably accessible, brand I see a lot of Americans talking about.

It does make it hard though. If she had a well planned diet it wouldn't hurt her to just make use of your toaster and your peanut butter and eat that. It's what I do when the options available aren't appropriate for my diet and do so quite happily. I love peanut butter though so maybe I'm just easy to please.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:02 pm 
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She lives at home with her parents. I'm pretty sure they are helping her with it. I didn't say a vegan diet can't be healthy, or that a regular diet with meat can't be unhealthy. I am simply saying that this girl doesn't look healthy. She has been vegan for years, it isn't a fad thing she's going through. The fact that she is so over-zealous about her diet tells me that she isn't somewhat of a vegan. She takes it seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:51 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
.

Assuming that this article is correct, there is nothing to defend. At least in India:

    If you go by three large-scale government surveys, 23%-37% of Indians are estimated to be vegetarian. By itself this is nothing remarkably revelatory.

    But new research by US-based anthropologist Balmurli Natrajan and India-based economist Suraj Jacob, points to a heap of evidence that even these are inflated estimations because of "cultural and political pressures". So people under-report eating meat - particularly beef - and over-report eating vegetarian food.

    Taking all this into account, say the researchers, only about 20% of Indians are actually vegetarian - much lower than common claims and stereotypes suggest.

The myth of the Indian vegetarian nation by Soutik Biswas (India correspondent) 4 April 2018, HERE.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
My grandson's girlfriend is vegan...

The problem in our case is that our grandson wants her to feel included, not different from the rest of us. Well, that's hard to do at mealtime. We can't really include her, and she is different. He feels that the fact that we can't easily prepare a separate meal for her calls attention to her difference, and we're not really trying to include her, and we look down on her for her choices.

A vegan/vegetarian who expects to be catered to at private events is just selfish.

It's one thing if the host/hostess wants to make the vegan/vegetarian something they can eat...

Its another thing (a rude thing) if the vegan/vegetarian feels entitled and pouts - or makes a scene (or a snide comment) - if they fail to find something they can eat at the party.

BUT... here's a thought... tell your grandson that he is welcome to buy the vegan ingredients and use your kitchen to make her meal (and, of course, clean up after the meal prep.) This might even be a grandma/grandson bonding opportunity! Assuming you have the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:21 pm 
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My grandson's mother invited the two of them to her home to celebrate her own birthday with a dinner party. She told him she would make a soup for the gf (enough for the whole family) along with her pre-planned meal. She found the soup recipe on a vegan site. He wanted to know what was in the soup, and said he was afraid she might add something his gf can't eat. (He might be more obsessed with veganism than his gf.) She got offended at his suggestion that she would do that, as would I! She did send the recipe to his gf, who approved it, but by then there was too much friction between mother and son, and the dinner part was cancelled. As a result, grandson didn't show up for the party and hasn't spoken to his heartbroken mother since. In fact, he told her that he gave her present to someone else "who would appreciate it". It wasn't the gf's fault, but she could have helped ease tensions by offering to bring her own food or eat before going to the party, or at least tell him that she approved the recipe.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
My grandson's girlfriend is vegan. ... her food can't touch ours.


Holy Guacamole ?

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Do you know arguments?

The philosophical work on meat eating arose from the side of the antis. The reason for this is that everyone knows it's OK to eat meat--it takes a philosopher to come up with goofy "reasons" against it. Given this general structure, defenders of meat eating have tended to focus their arguments on showing why vegan arguments fail, rather than on showing why meat eating in itself is acceptable. There are some modern philosophical pro-meat-eating arguments out there, but they're often at least as goofy as the arguments against. Things like, well, plants are sentient, too, so anything we eat suffers from our eating it, so unless you think we shouldn't eat plants and should just starve to death then I guess eating meat is OK. Or maybe, hey, while maybe we can't kill animals to eat them, we can at least gather up roadkilled animals and eat those! (I am not kidding. Not that I'm against eating roadkill. There's a long tradition where I'm from of people taking home roadkilled deer, anyway. But I'm saying this is the kind of argument you get in favor of meat eating. Yes to roadkill, no to raising cattle or what have you.)

Roger Scruton may be the source of the best arguments in defense of meat eating at present. At present I don't have time to try to reproduce any of his lines of thought, but he's got a book on animal ethics, and he's also got some articles available online, including some very accessible ones, that you can probably find on google.

The real argument, though not one likely to win hearts and minds among the secularists out there, who decry what they call anthropocentrism, is that all things, including animals, are open to man's reasonable use. The problem with this way of looking at it is that it rules out our eating the vast majority of the meat raised in industrial farms. Those processes, though "efficient," are in no sense reasonable. Scruton agrees with this, by the way, though he doesn't get there in exactly the same way that I think, say, St. Thomas would.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:04 pm 
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So, you have no problem with eating .... say, pickles?

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
My grandson's mother invited the two of them to her home to celebrate her own birthday with a dinner party. She told him she would make a soup for the gf (enough for the whole family) along with her pre-planned meal. She found the soup recipe on a vegan site. He wanted to know what was in the soup, and said he was afraid she might add something his gf can't eat. (He might be more obsessed with veganism than his gf.) She got offended at his suggestion that she would do that, as would I! She did send the recipe to his gf, who approved it, but by then there was too much friction between mother and son, and the dinner part was cancelled. As a result, grandson didn't show up for the party and hasn't spoken to his heartbroken mother since. In fact, he told her that he gave her present to someone else "who would appreciate it". It wasn't the gf's fault, but she could have helped ease tensions by offering to bring her own food or eat before going to the party, or at least tell him that she approved the recipe.

It sounds to me like the problem has more to do with your grandson than anything else. Veganism is an easier topic for him to get upset about than the core of what concerns him about some family relationships. And to give him further distance, he's put the girlfriend AND veganism in the middle to further insulate himself from having to talk about whatever is really bothering him.

DISCLAIMER: I got my psychology degree from the hardware store so I could be way off on this assessment.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
She lives at home with her parents. I'm pretty sure they are helping her with it. I didn't say a vegan diet can't be healthy, or that a regular diet with meat can't be unhealthy. I am simply saying that this girl doesn't look healthy. She has been vegan for years, it isn't a fad thing she's going through. The fact that she is so over-zealous about her diet tells me that she isn't somewhat of a vegan. She takes it seriously.

Her being vegan and not looking healthy is a correlation, which is not evidence of cause and effect. There are many healthy looking vegans (which is also a correlation).

Also, I wonder if the girl might have undiagnosed Asperger's Syndrome and/or OCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
My grandson's mother invited the two of them to her home to celebrate her own birthday with a dinner party. She told him she would make a soup for the gf (enough for the whole family) along with her pre-planned meal. She found the soup recipe on a vegan site. He wanted to know what was in the soup, and said he was afraid she might add something his gf can't eat. (He might be more obsessed with veganism than his gf.) She got offended at his suggestion that she would do that, as would I! She did send the recipe to his gf, who approved it, but by then there was too much friction between mother and son, and the dinner part was cancelled. As a result, grandson didn't show up for the party and hasn't spoken to his heartbroken mother since. In fact, he told her that he gave her present to someone else "who would appreciate it". It wasn't the gf's fault, but she could have helped ease tensions by offering to bring her own food or eat before going to the party, or at least tell him that she approved the recipe.


There are two issues being discussed her. One is the efficacy of a vegan/vegetarian diet.

The second is the rolling drama centered around a young woman and some of her entourage which seems to be using her diet as a manipulative tool. There seems to be a whole lot of "Look at me, look at me, no, stop .... look at me!" It seems to me that any vegan who is serious about social relationships would bring their own food to an event and all would be well with everyone. Or you can create drama.

BTW, I infer that your grandson and his mother are deep into the drama .... for whatever reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
My grandson's mother invited the two of them to her home to celebrate her own birthday with a dinner party. She told him she would make a soup for the gf (enough for the whole family) along with her pre-planned meal. She found the soup recipe on a vegan site. He wanted to know what was in the soup, and said he was afraid she might add something his gf can't eat. (He might be more obsessed with veganism than his gf.) She got offended at his suggestion that she would do that, as would I! She did send the recipe to his gf, who approved it, but by then there was too much friction between mother and son, and the dinner part was cancelled. As a result, grandson didn't show up for the party and hasn't spoken to his heartbroken mother since. In fact, he told her that he gave her present to someone else "who would appreciate it". It wasn't the gf's fault, but she could have helped ease tensions by offering to bring her own food or eat before going to the party, or at least tell him that she approved the recipe.


There are two issues being discussed her. One is the efficacy of a vegan/vegetarian diet.

The second is the rolling drama centered around a young woman and some of her entourage which seems to be using her diet as a manipulative tool. There seems to be a whole lot of "Look at me, look at me, no, stop .... look at me!" It seems to me that any vegan who is serious about social relationships would bring their own food to an event and all would be well with everyone. Or you can create drama.

BTW, I infer that your grandson and his mother are deep into the drama .... for whatever reasons.


Bingo!

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:17 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:

DISCLAIMER: I got my psychology degree from the hardware store....


I can tell. ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:34 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:

DISCLAIMER: I got my psychology degree from the hardware store....


I can tell. ::):


I got my degree in philosophy from Disneyland. It is framed and everything. With Mickey on the frame.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:

Also, I wonder if the girl might have undiagnosed Asperger's Syndrome and/or OCD.


:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:

DISCLAIMER: I got my psychology degree from the hardware store....


I can tell. ::):


I got my degree in philosophy from Disneyland. It is framed and everything. With Mickey on the frame.


Mine has Goofy.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments from reason, defending meat-eating
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:48 pm 
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Mmmmmmmmm ... drama.

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