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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:15 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
p.falk wrote:
What a thing to say about a faithful Catholic who had already been dragged through the mud.
If you're referring to Kim Davis, she is not Catholic (nor particularly faithful).

She is part of the Apostolic Pentecostal movement and she has been married four times, divorced three, to three different men. She is now re-married to her second husband. All of this is contrary to the ethics of the Apostolic Pentecostal movement.


Fie! Oh, fie, fie, fie!

Don't you understand? She understands, and that should be enough for us. Please --- keep you facts to yourself.

But, upon reflection, this Davis person might be a candidate as an amazon Deacon.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:18 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Highlander wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
I sincerely believe the Pope wants to hear some constructive things from anyone but not something vague or disrespectful.

Are you aware of the dubia? Never answered. Except by someone--obviously not Francis--who genuinely was a good pope: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... -answered/


I don't get it.

I admire Benedict immensely. But what do his answers have to do with an evaluation of Francis? Was he called upon to answer the dubia? Were they not already answered? And if they were presented to Francis, why would Benedict answer them?

Sadly, compared to others, I'm confused.

My point is that Francis can't be bothered to answer four cardinals of the Church who asked him obviously important questions in a deeply respectful way.


Thank you. I infer then, that Francis was presented with the dubia, but Benedict answered them.

Thus, I find him, Francis, confusing. At times, he seems a secular infiltrator, in the best Latin American tradition. At others he seems a genuinely humane and exemplary leader of the Church. I am particularly confused, when he is presented with an opportunity to clarify his positions, he doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:04 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Highlander wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
I sincerely believe the Pope wants to hear some constructive things from anyone but not something vague or disrespectful.

Are you aware of the dubia? Never answered. Except by someone--obviously not Francis--who genuinely was a good pope: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... -answered/


I don't get it.

I admire Benedict immensely. But what do his answers have to do with an evaluation of Francis? Was he called upon to answer the dubia? Were they not already answered? And if they were presented to Francis, why would Benedict answer them?

Sadly, compared to others, I'm confused.

My point is that Francis can't be bothered to answer four cardinals of the Church who asked him obviously important questions in a deeply respectful way.




Which four Cardinals? When? Where? No more guessing games.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:16 pm 
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Did you read the link? It answers your questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:39 pm 
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To the OP. Francis has made universalist sounding statements many times.

All the serious minded Catholics I know are very unhappy with this pope.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
To the OP. Francis has made universalist sounding statements many times.

All the serious minded Catholics I know are very unhappy with this pope.


I hold that, to my disquiet, Francis makes statements steeped in the Liberation Theology, despite its supposed quashing by Ratzinger.

Catholics I know and respect, who adore Francis, seem lured by their vision of him as a modernist iconoclast who has risen to head the Church. In particular, I know several Catholics who believe that women's ordination, married clergy, and lay councils running each parish are just round the corner.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Which four Cardinals? When? Where? No more guessing games.

Brandmueller
Burke
Caffara
Meisner

The latter two are now deceased

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:01 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
To the OP. Francis has made universalist sounding statements many times.

All the serious minded Catholics I know are very unhappy with this pope.


I hold that, to my disquiet, Francis makes statements steeped in the Liberation Theology, despite its supposed quashing by Ratzinger.

Catholics I know and respect, who adore Francis, seem lured by their vision of him as a modernist iconoclast who has risen to head the Church. In particular, I know several Catholics who believe that women's ordination, married clergy, and lay councils running each parish are just round the corner.

:). No offense, but your friends sound like the enemy. Ideological enemy, I guess. Well, no, I was about to say most of them are nice enough, baby boomer types and whatnot, but they only appear nice. Try telling them you want more Catholicism in your Catholic church and maybe some Latin and they'll want to burn you at the stake.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:41 pm 
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Despite efforts of millennials in social media, the only time I consider the name of my generation, “baby boomer,” to be pejorative is when referring to my fellow Catholics. I’m sorry to say that my generation, the Pontiff included, worked hard to earn that enmity. :cry:

(Apologies to fs, 1HCaAC, kage, Siggy, and other fellow boomers here who are NOT part of the problem.)

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:58 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
To the OP. Francis has made universalist sounding statements many times.

All the serious minded Catholics I know are very unhappy with this pope.


I hold that, to my disquiet, Francis makes statements steeped in the Liberation Theology, despite its supposed quashing by Ratzinger.

Catholics I know and respect, who adore Francis, seem lured by their vision of him as a modernist iconoclast who has risen to head the Church. In particular, I know several Catholics who believe that women's ordination, married clergy, and lay councils running each parish are just round the corner.

:). No offense, but your friends sound like the enemy. Ideological enemy, I guess. Well, no, I was about to say most of them are nice enough, baby boomer types and whatnot, but they only appear nice. Try telling them you want more Catholicism in your Catholic church and maybe some Latin and they'll want to burn you at the stake.

My friends who are thus seduced have, IMO, been associating with various Catholic religious who have convinced them that what modernity demands is what the Church must obviously and immediately do. Then all will get much better and all problems will fade, the pews and coffers will fill, everyone will be joyous and equal, and, as one said, "Old men will no longer have a voice in the Church." One opined that women should be able to confess to women, rather than be forced to confess to men. They also attend and assist in various Catholic programs which, it seems to me, are as much indoctrination as education. They genuinely mean well, and live with generousity; but seem to have been cast adrift, theologically.

One such, attending Mass with us when visiting, observed the singing, Latin, Greek, incense, and deacons, said that she hadn't seen such a Mass since her early childhood. In that respect, I think, the Church let her down, not the opposite. I don't know if she was pleased or offended; I suspect the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:27 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
If you want to understand Pope Francis, read what Pope Francis says, not what I might say. It took Pope Francis many months to write that encyclical, you somewhat overestimate my ability if you think I could do better in five or ten minutes, or an hour or two, if I had that much time to spare, which I haven't. I have a life.


Mrs. Timmy specifically asked you for your own understanding. I don't think Pope Francis can answer that for you. Your life seems to conveniently allow you time to make lofty claims of knowledge of Pope Francis's mind, then conveniently steps in when you are asked to put it in your own words. Odd, that.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:12 am 
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Francis is a horrid pope. Blessing idols was just the last iteration.

He is explicit on much of his agenda, including changing the very nature of the Church when he raved against the pope as absolute monarch. He is at best callously irresponsible with the media (there is no excuse for the Scalfari interviews... All the excuses would just be reasons why not to do them repeatedly)

He tears and mocks young priests, and orthodox Catholics from the pulpit. He is given to bouts of rage and foul language (even a few times in public)

He has promoted and encouraged those whom he ought to correct, against the obligation his predecessors understood, as in Holy Writ

If thou dost not declare his iniquity to the wicked, I will require his blood at thy hand


He has actively endorsed communion in cases objectively wrong.

He has not infrequently shown carelessness and ignorance of the very laws he attempts to change (e.g being unaware that the reserved sins, as opposed to censures, were abolished in 1983).

We have also seen a precipitous decline in both order and quality in the curia, reflected in both large and small matters (e.g legally ambigious legislation or ungrammatical prayers for new feasts)

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:57 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Despite efforts of millennials in social media, the only time I consider the name of my generation, “baby boomer,” to be pejorative is when referring to my fellow Catholics. I’m sorry to say that my generation, the Pontiff included, worked hard to earn that enmity. :cry:

(Apologies to fs, 1HCaAC, kage, Siggy, and other fellow boomers here who are NOT part of the problem.)


I think I'm too old to be a boomer, in most definitions. Not that I would expect to be in your list.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:41 am 
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GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Despite efforts of millennials in social media, the only time I consider the name of my generation, “baby boomer,” to be pejorative is when referring to my fellow Catholics. I’m sorry to say that my generation, the Pontiff included, worked hard to earn that enmity. :cry:

(Apologies to fs, 1HCaAC, kage, Siggy, and other fellow boomers here who are NOT part of the problem.)


I think I'm too old to be a boomer, in most definitions. Not that I would expect to be in your list.

Silent generation?

The Pope is actually not a Boomer either - we've yet to have a Boomer Pope.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:41 am 
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GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Despite efforts of millennials in social media, the only time I consider the name of my generation, “baby boomer,” to be pejorative is when referring to my fellow Catholics. I’m sorry to say that my generation, the Pontiff included, worked hard to earn that enmity. :cry:

(Apologies to fs, 1HCaAC, kage, Siggy, and other fellow boomers here who are NOT part of the problem.)


I think I'm too old to be a boomer, in most definitions. Not that I would expect to be in your list.


born between '44 and '64 is generally the accepted age... i sure thought you were in that group also ... but then you would know better, wouldn't you? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:07 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.

Didn't I spot you recently while you were wearing this shirt?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:09 am 
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St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Charity will not allow me to say at this point that Francis is a “bad pope.” But he sure as hell ain’t a good one. :fyi:

Those of us who understand what Pope Francis is doing, and trying to do, understand that he is a very good pope. Some Catholics don't understand, some may have difficulty understanding, and some don't want to understand.

Didn't I spot you recently while you were wearing this shirt?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:10 am 
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GKC wrote:
...I think I'm too old to be a boomer, in most definitions. Not that I would expect to be in your list.

You're older than you look. And act even older. Your thinking is positively antediluvian.

Oh, I placed you on a couple of lists. And I'm checking them again.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:18 am 
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I respectfully direct this quote of Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen to those who think that Catholics
should not critique our bishops or our popes:

"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you the people. You have the minds, the eyes, and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious."

We need to pray for all our priests.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:22 am 
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I recall Pope Benedict stating he was concerned when he was not criticized on any given day. This, however, sounds like the secular media with some Catholic wording.

To answer the OP - No. And to answer the critics here: contact the Vatican. I'm sure Pope Francis would be interested in getting your comments directly.

And regarding 'what most Catholics think,' the answer is: No, you don't know.


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