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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Pastoral Provision.

The priest who confirmed me was a former Episcopalian, married, and with five children.

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Last edited by Highlander on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:58 pm 
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My understanding is that it is permitted; I don't know what the permission is called.


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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:16 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
When I visited my son in Texas some years ago, I met his priest.....he was a Catholic convert from being an Episcopalian priest and already had a wife before he became a Catholic priest.


the last i heard we had 6 married priests in our archdiocese

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:28 pm 
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A married man can be ordained (though it is unusual in the West) but an ordained man cannot marry.


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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Makes sense. Thanks guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:45 am 
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Pope Francis was at a pagan prayer session to kick off this Amazon Synod.


From the Amazon Synod document: "The Church must avoid imposing petrified doctrines, it must avoid a corporatist attitude that reserves salvation exclusively to one's own creed".


Wow, a sentiment that reminds me of that microwave warmed oatmeal Catholicism that my Catholic high school offered to us. The same kind of Catholicism that ultimately resulted in a handful of my graduating class even still concerning themselves with the Catholic faith. That handful holding on to that faith despite all of the efforts of our Catholic schooling.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Bishop Krautler was interviewed and when asked if he ultimately wants women priests (priests, not just deacons) after vacillating a bit he replied "si, logically".

Edward Pentin pushed him to answer if this Amazonian Synod was the first step in that direction it appeared he was saying 'yes'.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:48 am 
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I heard Johnathan Morris state, and I paraphrase, that the Amazonian logic goes something like this:

South America is in such dire need of priests, that a special exception to priestly celibacy must be made. The overwhelming and primary need is that the faithful be served. That unmet need constitutes an emergency and that emergency trumps the tradition of celibate, unmarried priests. Therefore, some provision for married priests must be made to address the primacy of the needs of the faithful.

He further stated:

The Amazonian logic (1) flies in the face of Catholic practice and belief that has given the Church, and its faithful, a foundation of certitude that has existed for thousands of years, (2) will, if carried forth, be the camel's nose under the wall of the tent, as similar "emergencies", such as the need for women's ordination, can be discovered whenever some desire change, and (3) will result in the destruction of the institution that it is purported to save.

The former priest appealed to the Pope, looking directly into the camera, begging him to not allow the Amazonian Synod to proceed down a path that it appears determined to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:34 am 
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Cardinal Robert Sarah, in his latest book "The Day is Now Far Spent" addresses the celibacy question on page 77, referring to the Amazonian Synod. (I just reached that page yesterday).

He did an awesome job of explaining why it is a huge mistake to consider married priests.


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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:54 am 
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p.falk wrote:
Pope Francis was at a pagan prayer session to kick off this Amazon Synod.


From the Amazon Synod document: "The Church must avoid imposing petrified doctrines, it must avoid a corporatist attitude that reserves salvation exclusively to one's own creed".


Wow, a sentiment that reminds me of that microwave warmed oatmeal Catholicism that my Catholic high school offered to us. The same kind of Catholicism that ultimately resulted in a handful of my graduating class even still concerning themselves with the Catholic faith. That handful holding on to that faith despite all of the efforts of our Catholic schooling.


According to the friends list on my facebook page, most of the cradles that I graduated high school with (a de la Salle school for boys) are no longer Catholics, and most of the ones who still identify as Catholic are no longer practicing.

Ironic that, as Catholics, they were required to take 'Religion,' while non-Catholics (such as myself at the time) had the option to take Religion but were otherwise required to take 'Ethics' ---- and now I'm Catholic and they're not.

In Ethics classes, we learned about the stock market, proper etiquette for taking a girl on a date, how to win friends and influence people kinda stuff.... It was an easy A, while the Catholics were having to study for tests on, y'know, Catholicism and stuff. SMH.... maybe staying away from the Religion classes actually helped me. :).


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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:34 am 
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Highlander wrote:
I heard Johnathan Morris state, and I paraphrase, that the Amazonian logic goes something like this:

South America is in such dire need of priests, that a special exception to priestly celibacy must be made. The overwhelming and primary need is that the faithful be served. That unmet need constitutes an emergency and that emergency trumps the tradition of celibate, unmarried priests. Therefore, some provision for married priests must be made to address the primacy of the needs of the faithful.

He further stated:

The Amazonian logic (1) flies in the face of Catholic practice and belief that has given the Church, and its faithful, a foundation of certitude that has existed for thousands of years, (2) will, if carried forth, be the camel's nose under the wall of the tent, as similar "emergencies", such as the need for women's ordination, can be discovered whenever some desire change, and (3) will result in the destruction of the institution that it is purported to save.

The former priest appealed to the Pope, looking directly into the camera, begging him to not allow the Amazonian Synod to proceed down a path that it appears determined to take.


Lot of laity talk about how men steer clear of the priesthood because of the celibacy rule.... as if man were some kind of animal completely incapable of any self-control.

While there may be some men who would like to be priests and be married and have a family, there are plenty more men who would like to be priests "the old fashioned way."

The current leaders of the Church are not finding proper solutions to the problems because they either refuse to recognize the actual problems or are incapable of such.... or just as likely, don't want to solve the actual problems.

The Pauline Mass is pretty much milquetoast, and over the years, the Church/Faith has become more feminized. Most men aren't interested in getting involved with "women stuff," which is why you don't have guys involved with things like Tupperware parties and selling MaryKay (or whatever the current equivalent of those things are) or going to women's basketball games. Why do you need to be a priest when you've got all these women EMHCs and female 'parish administrators' and women in charge of the 'religious formation committee' and RCIA, etc. etc. etc.? ...... and then let's not even get started with the rife homosexuality existent in the seminaries. It has long been established that perfectly good, heterosexual men who wanted to be priests have existed, but were washed out of the seminary because they wouldn't get on board with the internal homosexual agenda. I personally know a handful of guys who fell into that bucket.

So... if you have a priest shortage, it seems hardly necessary to dispense with the discipline of clerical celibacy to resolve that problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Heard on the radio this morning -- I think it was EWTN radio, I was listening to a couple different Catholic stations on SiriusXM -- a discussion about the "indigenous people don't understand celibacy" claim.

One of the commenters said that most high school kids here in the States don't "understand celibacy", either.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Speed Racer wrote:
Heard on the radio this morning -- I think it was EWTN radio, I was listening to a couple different Catholic stations on SiriusXM -- a discussion about the "indigenous people don't understand celibacy" claim.

One of the commenters said that most high school kids here in the States don't "understand celibacy", either.


great point.


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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:51 pm 
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There is an argument that, since some number of Catholics are lapsed, the Church must change so that, in future, they don't.

That logic presumes that the Church can reinvent (I do hate that word) itself in a manner that will result in no more lapses. And a new golden age, I suppose, of Catholicosity. Because many good suppositions. And guesses. And agendas ... some of which are strikingly secular. It also presumes that the reinvention will not drive currently faithful from the pews, as they will be hip with the trendy, shiny new church ... featuring banjos and sacred dance and flags of many colors.

See how that has worked out for the mainstream Protestant denominations.

I offer that the concept of reinvention, currently much in vogue, is captive to secular modernity. I further offer that placing in God's hands the issue of Catholics lapsing will, one way or the other, be resolved. Satisfactorily.

DW just returned from Italy, where she and a friend toured. The friend is a decisively lapsed Catholic, dismissive of the Church, for lots of reasons that include a dismaying lack of catechesis, familial issues which included the absence of a Catholic exemplar, and immersion into secular modernity. DW set the agenda, which featured about 20 churches in Venice, Florence, and Rome ... her friend commented, early on, that it was one church after another. DW reported, with happiness, that she observed our friend, more than once, genuflect, light a candle, and pray, kneeling, in the pews. I choose, absent other evidence, to see the Holy Spirit at work.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:40 am 
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Speed Racer wrote:
Heard on the radio this morning -- I think it was EWTN radio, I was listening to a couple different Catholic stations on SiriusXM -- a discussion about the "indigenous people don't understand celibacy" claim.

One of the commenters said that most high school kids here in the States don't "understand celibacy", either.

Same bishop (Bp. Krautler) too!

If the indigeonous people of the Amazon don't understand celibacy, that's a failure of catechesis and ultimately the fault of bishops like +Krautler. Even if we grant that priestly celibacy is a "discipline", it's a defined doctrine of the Church that the celibate state is objectively superior to the married state (this was defined at the Council of Trent). And even among Churches with a married secular priesthood we see celibacy treated with greater reverence than the married state -- bishops are chosen from among the monks. Surely His Excellency isn't saying that the people of the Amazon can't be catechized? Because that would be racist.

Furthermore, without celibacy, you might have priests but you won't have any vocations to the religious life, and I'm convinced that an abundance (relatively speaking) of vocations to the religious life are a better indicator of a local Church's health than an abundance of vocations to the secular priesthood.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:43 am 
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p.falk wrote:
Bishop Krautler was interviewed and when asked if he ultimately wants women priests (priests, not just deacons) after vacillating a bit he replied "si, logically".

That would be contrary to the Profession of Faith that His Excellency took before assuming his office.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:18 pm 
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Maybe I'm missing it...
But Jimmy Akin and Mark Shea seem pretty quiet on this Amazonian Synod.

No "nothing to see here" or "angry White-Christianist-Trads screaming the sky is falling in the amazon!!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Perhaps, if ignored, the camel can get its entire head under the tent wall.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:39 am 
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Wow... it's something to see how quickly the bishops seem to have pushed the doing away with celibacy and women in the diaconate.

I'm a bit shocked at how they all seem to be in agreement on those points.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon Synod - anything to be concerned about?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:43 am 
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From what little I've read, not all Bishops are in agreement. Some are forcefully so ... having spoken publicly at the Synod.

However, the wind seems to be blowing from Rome on the selection of the bishops attending, the agenda, and public statements of the bishops "running" the Synod.

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Benedicamus Domino!
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