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 Post subject: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by Shea
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:32 pm 
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I've been reading quite a bit on Thomas Pink's thoughts regarding Church-state relationship, unconverted being under the 'dominion of the devil', and post-conciliar Church soft-pedalling the importance of the Baptism and other sacraments (and how all of these issues are related to and impact the other).

It's some harsh stuff to swallow.... but that doesn't mean it's not true.
I find myself being convinced by what Thomas Pink has to say, but I want to balance that with the criticisms of his views.

I listened to much of a debate between Pink and Fr. Martin Rhonheimer. Fr. Rhonheimer was convincing.... but Pink's rebuttals and reassertions still made more sense. But it was a very respectful disagreement between the two.

Then I saw that a Mark Lewis had an article disagreeing with Thomas Pink.... when I clicked to read it I was brought to Mark Shea's blog.
And in the first paragraph (Mark's introductory remarks to what he's about to share from Mark Lewis' more thoughtful disagreement) I'm immediately hit with the same old boring Shea'ism "Greatest Catholic of all Time... destroying the Magisterium.... Americanist Christianism..."

But I forged onward. Mark Lewis raises some of the same objections that Feser did, such as how does one determine what is the "Official Theology" that is extrapolated from the actual Magisterial teaching... and is "Official Theology" simply one's way to cherry-pick what one is going to disagree with? An interesting point.... one that still has me kind of stumped.

So you're getting this thoughtful disagreement over important matters concerning the Church and her mission to members and the unconverted world.

And then, like a jackhammer starting up in the middle of reasonable dialog Shea punches in with his own "insights" (or... what's the opposite of an "insight"?).

Quote:
Conservative Christianists enemies of the Magisterium in love with Trump and at war with Francis are fighting the Church on nearly every aspect of her social teaching. Unjust war, torture, living wage, capital punishment, tearing families limb from limb and caging children, contempt for refugees, gun violence, health care, climate change, you name it.


For a moment (while reading Lewis) I almost forgot I was on Shea's blog. Like being ripped out of daydream I was immediately brought back to earth with his paroxysm.

But I couldn't help start laughing.... Pink? "in love with Trump"?! and all of that other gibberish about torture, climate change, refugees.

I wonder if those kind of buzz words direct online traffic to his page. He spews them out so much (in contexts that don't even make sense) that you've got to wonder.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:07 am 
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Mike Lewis is not fully hinged. My interactions with him have always been nasty. And his views are not respectful disagreement, but often completely alien to Catholic tradition, but he doesn't read those he disagrees with... Not really.

In general Shea, WherePeterIs etc are to the discussion at their best of times like RemnantTV (if you have never watched it, don't) at their worse the quality of Novus Ordo watch on the other side

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:10 am 
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Sadly, Shea has sunk to the level of self-parody. It's a sad lesson in what failure to control your anger can do to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:45 am 
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As I've gotten older, I've gotten mellower, whatever the opposite of mellower might be that is what has happened to Mark Shea.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:56 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Mike Lewis is not fully hinged. My interactions with him have always been nasty. And his views are not respectful disagreement, but often completely alien to Catholic tradition, but he doesn't read those he disagrees with... Not really.

In general Shea, WherePeterIs etc are to the discussion at their best of times like RemnantTV (if you have never watched it, don't) at their worse the quality of Novus Ordo watch on the other side



Thanks for the word of caution.

I was only getting snippets of his reply from Shea's blog.

And it might have been since Shea's initial comment was just the same angry propaganda he usually offers that Lewis's comments seemed that more balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:40 pm 
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Doom wrote:
As I've gotten older, I've gotten mellower, whatever the opposite of mellower might be that is what has happened to Mark Shea.



He was rather genial to me, 20 years ago.

Perhaps it was in his early stage.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:29 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
As I've gotten older, I've gotten mellower, whatever the opposite of mellower might be that is what has happened to Mark Shea.



He was rather genial to me, 20 years ago.

Perhaps it was in his early stage.


Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:52 am 
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Shea's book By What Authority helped me on my path to Catholicism.

But I was sincerely dismayed coming across his blog several years ago and seeing the profound contempt and outright hatred he had for traditionalists and "conservatives"...of which I am not -- I am just a regular Catholic son of Mother Church trying to stay out of sin -- it was really shocking, and sad... :(

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 am 
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I'm sad for the same reason. His work was really helpful to me at one time, but I can't recommend it to others these days without a severe caveat to avoid anything he writes now.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:49 am 
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Charitably, perhaps Shea sees the Church tearing itself apart and, in his bewilderment, casts blame on "conservative Christianist enemies of Francis". He's always - at least for the past 10 years or so (it predates the current Papacy, IIRC) - had whatever the opposite of a soft spot is for traditionalists, but from time to time would offer one of his non-apology apologies ("I'm sorry I lost my temper but the traditionalists drove me to it"); I think he's stopped even that. Really, best avoided.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
As I've gotten older, I've gotten mellower, whatever the opposite of mellower might be that is what has happened to Mark Shea.



He was rather genial to me, 20 years ago.

Perhaps it was in his early stage.


Yes.



I have his BY WHAT AUTHORITY and MAKING SENSES OUT OF SCRIPTURE. He signed SENSES and inscribed it nicely, mentioning our mutual love of Chesterton and saying something nice that must have come from our email exchange. I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:45 pm 
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I have been told by several people that he's quite genial in person, and I had several good email exchanges with him a few years ago. Apparently a computer and a public forum work strange things upon his psyche.

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:46 pm 
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I just finished another article by Pink written for First Things on how the coercive powers of the Church were never questioned in Dignitatis Humanae…. not directly addressed, but never questioned.

But it got me thinking about that Shea article in which Shea posts Mike Lewis' criticisms of Pink.

Here's the full article that I didn't link in my first post:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/ ... erium.html

I joked (mocked) how Shea had little to nothing (more nothing than little) to offer in the discussion but I decided to read the post again.
Absolutely nothing Shea writes about comes within 20 miles of what Pink's initial article (which somehow prompted Shea to write his) is even about.
I truly believe Shea knows nothing about Pink nor about what he has written, saw Lewis' article, copy and pasted it into his own blog, and garnished it with his standard insults.
Because even the insults have nothing to do with anything about Pink: "Americanist Christianism", slams on the GOP, taking families off of healthcare, TRUUUUUUMMMMMP!???

But then he ends his article with this doozy: "What sane person would trust such transparent liars?"

Huh... transparent liars?
Pink has engaged in thoughtful disagreement with many people on these topics (Vatican II, Leo XIII, Imortale Dei, Dignitatis Humanae, coercive authority of the Church over the baptized, the significance of the departure of the explicit exorcism in baptisms... on and on and on) for ol Dorito beard to end his nothing post about nothing with at the very least an indirect suggestion that Pink is one of those "transparent liars" is beyond any contemptible behavior he's been recently prone to.

At least with Feser he was arguing on the same topic. Waterlogged with ignorance and invective.... but he at least typed "death penalty".
With Pink he doesn't ever once address any topic (aside from a copy and paste) Pink focuses on. He name-calls him names that don't even apply and then suggests he's a transparent liar.

Disgusting

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:13 am 
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Considering Pink is British

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:28 am 
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:scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Thomas Pink, a disagreement, and a verbal convulsion by
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:13 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
:scratch:

Pink shouldn't be grouped with "Americanist Christianists" because he's not American. But Shea's stable of insults is very small, unlike that of the Holy Father.

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