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 Post subject: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:27 pm 
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speak dogmatically (I, with the authority bestowed upon me by Jesus Christ, I as the Bishop of Rome and Bishop of the Church define, declare, and statue...) when he ruled out women ordination in his CORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS?


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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:31 pm 
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Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: Affirmative.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ac_en.html

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Obviously he said it, but he define it dogmatically?

From what I understand, whether or not he did so is up for debate. Unless I am mistaken, the last infallible statement made by a pope was Pius XII's declaration of the Assumption. Some argue John Paul II did so in this encyclical.


Last edited by Matthew Michael on Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:36 pm 
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From the same document:
"
Quote:
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.


Infallible yes, extraordinary magisterium no.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:40 pm 
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1-Tome to Flavian, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon
2-Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople
3-Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;
4-Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical
5-Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical
6-Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception
7-Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.


John Paul II didn't make the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:40 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
From the same document:
"
Quote:
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.


Infallible yes, extraordinary magisterium no.

Quote:
There was speculation that Pope St John Paul II's Ordinatio Sacredotalis was an ex cathedra statement, but this has been denied by the Vatican, saying the teaching within it has been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium rather than by virtue of Papal infallibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 pm 
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He clearly specifically and explicitly worded it in a way as to imply the Vatican I definition of Papal Infallibility, (I pronounce, declare and define) and when asked about it, then Cardinal Ratzinger answered in the affirmative that the Pope did indeed intend his words to be an explicit evocation of Papal infallibility.

The wording of a document doesn't matter, what matters is papal intent, if the Pope intends it to be infallible, then it is, and according to Cardinal Ratzinger, John Paul II did indeed intend it to be infallible, we have no reason to think that Ratzinger was wrong about the Pope's intent.

It is not really possible to make a list of all ex-cathedra pronouncements, over the centuries, there have been hundreds.

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Last edited by Doom on Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:56 pm 
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Doom wrote:
He clearly specifically and explicitly worded it in a way as to imply the Vatican I definition of Papal Infallibility, (I pronounce, declare and define) and when asked about it, then Cardinal Ratzinger answered in the affirmative that the Pope did indeed intend his words to be an explicit evocation of Papal infallibility.

The wording of a document doesn't matter, what matters is papal intent, if the Pope intends it to be infallible, then it is, and according to Cardinal Ratzinger, John Paul II did indeed intend it to be infallible, we have no reason to think that Ratzinger was wrong about the Pope's intent.

It is not really to make a list of all ex-cathedra pronouncements, over the centuries, there have been hundreds.

I think that canon law says that it should be clear that the document was intended to be promulgated infallibly*. It is clear in this case, of course, as has been said by Ratzinger.

iirc it is not the text but the act of promulgating it that is infallible.

ETA CIC Can. 749 ยง3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Last edited by Jack3 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:58 pm 
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Matthew Michael wrote:
1-Tome to Flavian, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon
2-Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople
3-Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;
4-Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical
5-Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical
6-Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception
7-Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.


John Paul II didn't make the list.


If canonisations infallibly declare the person to be in heaven, as Ratzinger says, then the list would be longer.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Matthew Michael wrote:
Obviously he said it, but he define it dogmatically?

From what I understand, whether or not he did so is up for debate. Unless I am mistaken, the last infallible statement made by a pope was Pius XII's declaration of the Assumption. Some argue John Paul II did so in this encyclical.

Bottom line: The CDF says that it was infallible.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:59 am 
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The list is stupid, and born from ignorance. It includes at least one document that was not ex cathedra, and omit dozens of others.

The CDF is essentially saying that John Paul II did not define ex cathedra, because the matter was already to be held de fide credenda. If we include ex cathedra statements on matters already defined, then the list becomes virtually impossible, but this would be on it. If we include matters that were not considered defined until such a declaration, the list is still a lot longer. Have you read Ottaviani on this?

Short end, those impugning this doctrine, know what was taught in Ordinatio sacerdotalis, are heretics, and have no faith. They should not be listened to.

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:06 am 
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Just to show you how ignorant the list is, it lacks Unam sanctam and fails to distinguish elements in Auctorem fidei, some doctrines, e.g, were condemned as rash, injurious to Catholic schools, etc. But a condemnation that was ex cathedra would be with a note of heresy. And by the same measure some propositions in many other documents would be ex cathedra, e.g Quanta cura.


Whoever made the list doesn't know much, and being or not being on your anonymously sourced list means zilch

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Just to show you how ignorant the list is, it lacks Unam sanctam and fails to distinguish elements in Auctorem fidei, some doctrines, e.g, were condemned as rash, injurious to Catholic schools, etc. But a condemnation that was ex cathedra would be with a note of heresy. And by the same measure some propositions in many other documents would be ex cathedra, e.g Quanta cura.


Whoever made the list doesn't know much, and being or not being on your anonymously sourced list means zilch


I googled your list. It is from a book published before OS (1985)!!! And the author explicitly states it is incomplete. So I apologize to Mr. Sullivan (the author).

If you took the 5 secs to source such a list, you would have avoided such careless conclusions

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 Post subject: Re: Did John Paul II...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:33 am 
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Of interest

http://www.academia.edu/35624941/Disput ... allibility

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