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 Post subject: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:42 pm 
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In the Roman Catholic Church the Eucharist is a sacrament. Is the Eucharist also an ordinance in the Catholic Church?


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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:19 pm 
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'Ordinance' is a Calvinist term, it is not used in Catholicism at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:24 am 
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Stop making stuff up, Doom. Of course "ordinance" is a Catholic term. For example, Aquinas, talking about consanguinity as an impediment to marriage, says "Wherefore, according to human law and the ordinances of the Church, several degrees of consanguinity are debarred from marriage." The Catholic Encyclopedia talks about the relationship between the sacramental nature of marriage and Church ordinances, this way: "By Divine ordinance it is essential to Christian marriage that it should be a sacrament." Lastly, and this to the OP, Thomas Aquinas would certainly answer your question in the affirmative. In ST III.83.3, he makes plain that the sacrament is also an ordinance of the Church, saying,

    On the contrary, The Church's ordinances are Christ's own ordinances; since He said (Matthew 18:20): "Wherever two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them." I answer that, There are two things to be considered regarding the equipment of [the Eucharist]: one of these belongs to the representation of the events connected with our Lord's Passion; while the other is connected with the reverence due to the sacrament, in which Christ is contained verily, and not in figure only.

A better question, at least in my opinion, would be what some particular individual or group understands "ordinances of God" to mean. Is it just another word for "sacrament" so that they can avoid the term, as is common among the general population of quite a few evangelical churches? Do they refer to it as any direct command of God, or to decrees of God to groups (i.e., the Church in particular)? How would they distinguish between a sacrament and ordinance, for it could well be that the Eucharist (or the Lord's Supper, if they prefer) is one of a great many ordinances even as it is sacramental; or perhaps it is one of a great many ordinances and yet it is not sacramental, and thus the question is what makes this ordinance of particular importance so as to call special attention to the name? Perhaps the Eucharist is not sacramental for them and it is one of only a few few ordinances? Again, what do they mean by these terms? And then, what does the Church mean by these terms? That strikes me, at least, as a more interesting conversation. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:59 am 
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theJack wrote:
Stop making stuff up, Doom.


I stopped reading right there to put you on my ignore list. You can't just say something neutral like 'Actually, I think you may be mistaken', nope, you have to insult and belittle me first. Well, I'm done. Have a nice life.


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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:11 am 
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The permignore list is a wonderful thing. I have a few people on it myself. Unfortunately, it doesn't work unless you are logged in, so sometimes you still see those terribly annoying posters. So in honor of continuing to ignore you, I'll just reiterate: stop making stuff up. That's what you do. How many times have you made some ridiculous assertion and have been corrected or asked for a reference and then you simply ignore the request, as if just because you say it, it is true? You almost never source your claims. That's just what you do. You make stuff up. So, ignore me or not, no skin off my nose, but for the love of all that is holy, cut the crap.

And my life is quite nice, thank you. I'm sure it will continue to be. I hope yours is and continues to be, as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:09 am 
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In my experience, 'ordinance' are ofte used to denote many different things. Some use it merely as an alternative to 'sacrament,' but some use it in a way that I, as a Lutheran, find very troubling, especially when it is confused with the Reformed and Evangelical views.

In Reformed and Evangelical theology sacraments are often framed in a way that turns them into something we do (to express our belief, for instance), and not something God does (through people and material things). The question is what the sacraments are.

Many Evangelical and Reformed Christians use 'ordinance,' as they see the sacraments not as distributing salvation, forgiveness, etc., but as expressing the salvation, forgiveness, etc. already given. If this is the nature of the sacraments, and Christ commanded them, 'ordinance' (as Reformed and Evangelical Christians use the term) makes much sense.

But if sacraments are the way in which God distributes salvation, forgiveness, etc., then to use the term 'ordinance' can be confusing, and it often results in turning the Gospel into Law. If baptism saves, and baptism is something primarily that I do, then I save myself.

So I don't use the term 'ordinance,' as its meaning has evolved.

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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:44 am 
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And that's why I am reluctant to assent in the other ordinance thread to the simple equation of "ordinance" with "sacrament." Certainly we do them because Christ ordered them to be done, but there's much more to it than that. Coupled with the fact that Catholic theologians don't use the term, it is probably best avoided in this context.

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 Post subject: Re: Eucharist: An ordinance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:05 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Coupled with the fact that Catholic theologians don't use the term, it is probably best avoided in this context.


That a aaaa...."Obi Ordinance?"

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