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 Post subject: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:30 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Adam and Eve did not enjoy the beatific vision, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:09 am 
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They did not enjoy the Beatific Vision. (The garden of Eden is not Heaven)

If they did, then they would not commit sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:12 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
They did not enjoy the Beatific Vision. (The garden of Eden is not Heaven)

If they did, then they would not commit sin.


Satan had the beatific vision and he still sinned


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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 am 
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I'm not sure that's correct. The point of the angels' testing was that they didn't have the BV. Those who passed were granted it for eternity. Those who didn't were damned.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:32 am 
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HalJordan wrote:
I'm not sure that's correct. The point of the angels' testing was that they didn't have the BV. Those who passed were granted it for eternity. Those who didn't were damned.


Interesting, and your source for this is?


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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:54 am 
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Pretty sure I read that in St Louis de Montfort. I think PED has mentioned it a couple of times on the board, along with the idea that the grace of the BV excludes the potential for sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:05 pm 
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It was taught by St. Ignatius, St. Clement of Alexandria, as well as St. Thomas Aquinas. Whether it is dogma, doctrine, or just theological opinion is for someone with Denzinger's Enchiridion, or Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:37 pm 
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It is impossible to sin when given the BV since it is the telos of the will. Nothing can turn the will away from its true end. In order for a being to be tested, it must not be given the BV.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:00 pm 
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It is definitely the case that the fallen angels did not possess the beatific vision at any point in time, nor did Adam and Eve (although Adam and Eve do now, whereas the fallen angels never will). It is impossible to sin when one possesses the beatific vision. This is certainly the thought of St. Thomas, and I would go so far as to say that it is taught by the Church, but I don't have my copies of Denzinger and Ott with me right now, so I'll leave that to someone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Here's Ott:

    § 28. The Supernatural Exaltation and Probation of the Angels

    2. Probation of the Angels

    The Angels were subjected to a moral testing.
    [Senta. cert. as regards the fallen Angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.]

    They were first in a state of pilgrimage (in statu viae), in which they, through their free co-operation, with grace were required to merit (in statu termini) the Beatific Vision of God. The good Angels, who passed the test, entered as a reward therefore into the blessedness of Heaven (Mt. 18:10; Tob. 12:15; Hebr. 12:22: Apoc. 5:11; 7:11), while the bad Angels, who did not pass the test, fell under the ban of eternal damnation (2 Peter 2:4 ; Jud. 6).

    As far as the fallen Angels are concerned, the fact of their moral testing may be inferred from the fact of the fall (2 Peter 2:4). As regards the good Angels, it cannot with certainty be established from Scripture as their blessedness is not expressly represented as a reward for their loyalty. The opinion adopted by many of the Fathers, that the Angels were created in a state of glory, is, as regards the bad Angels, irreconcilable with the fact of the Fall. The view which was held for a long time by St. Augustine, but which was finally abandoned by him, that from the beginning there were two distinct realms of Angels, the higher realm consisting of the Angels created in the state of glory, and therefore incapable of sin, and the lower realm of the Angels capable of sin, who bad first to merit the perfect blessedness by loyal fulfillment of duties, is improbable. as it implies a completely unfounded difference in the original creation of the Angels. S. th. I 62. 4-5.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Angels/angels11g.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:44 am 
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Fr Kenobi wrote:
The human will is designed to choose the good; we sin when we persuade ourselves that something is good that isn't. A person who has the fullness of the Beatific vision can't make that mistake and so will always choose it. (That's not absolutely defined but it's the only reasonable theory.)

viewtopic.php?p=2523586#p2523586

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Adam and Eve and the beatific vision
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:59 am 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
... It is impossible to sin when one possesses the beatific vision. This is certainly the thought of St. Thomas, and I would go so far as to say that it is taught by the Church, but I don't have my copies of Denzinger and Ott with me right now, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Does this count:

"Since, however, both these faculties are imperfect, it is possible, as is often seen, that the reason should propose something which is not really good, but which has the appearance of good, and that the will should choose accordingly. For, as the possibility of error, and actual error, are defects of the mind and attest its imperfection, so the pursuit of what has a false appearance of good, though a proof of our freedom, just as a disease is a proof of our vitality, implies defect in human liberty. The will also, simply because of its dependence on the reason, no sooner desires anything contrary thereto than it abuses its freedom of choice and corrupts its very essence. Thus it is that the infinitely perfect God, although supremely free, because of the supremacy of His intellect and of His essential goodness, nevertheless cannot choose evil; neither can the angels and saints, who enjoy the beatific vision. St. Augustine and others urged most admirably against the Pelagians that, if the possibility of deflection from good belonged to the essence or perfection of liberty, then God, Jesus Christ, and the angels and saints, who have not this power, would have no liberty at all, or would have less liberty than man has in his state of pilgrimage and imperfection. This subject is often discussed by the Angelic Doctor in his demonstration that the possibility of sinning is not freedom, but slavery. It will suffice to quote his subtle commentary on the words of our Lord: "Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin."(3) "Everything," he says, "is that which belongs to it a naturally. When, therefore, it acts through a power outside itself, it does not act of itself, but through another, that is, as a slave. But man is by nature rational. When, therefore, he acts according to reason, he acts of himself and according to his free will; and this is liberty. Whereas, when he sins, he acts in opposition to reason, is moved by another, and is the victim of foreign misapprehensions. Therefore, `Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin.' "(4) Even the heathen philosophers clearly recognized this truth, especially they who held that the wise man alone is free; and by the term "wise man" was meant, as is well known, the man trained to live in accordance with his nature, that is, in justice and virtue." L13, Libertas.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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